An Anti-Racist Approach to Cannabis and Social Equity
Download MP3Welcome to joint session, Diverse Voices in New York State Cannabis, where you hear from policymakers, legislators, thought leaders, licensees, advocates, and others interested in the state of the New York cannabis market. In this episode, I speak with Tavion Crosland, equity director of the New York chapter of the Social Equity Empowerment Network. Tavion is an impassioned advocate focused on social equity and community building in the cannabis market. In our licensee highlight segment, I speak with John Vavalo, CEO of Central Processors New York. John has nearly ten years experience in the legal cannabis market.
Speaker 1:In our farm to retail discussion, you'll learn how the cannabis plant is turned into the various products that are sold in New York's dispensaries. But first, let's take a quick spin around the news. In a move that would surely please episode eight guest and traffic safety expert, Chuck DeWeese, the CDC has published a grants notice titled effectiveness research to prevent polysubstance in paid driving, which means specifically the CDC is looking for applicants who will evaluate and examine the effectiveness of strategies, programs, or policies related to preventing polysubstance impaired driving, including cannabis and alcohol, for example. Comprehensive evaluations of strategies to prevent polysubstance impaired driving are lacking and urgently needed given the changing landscape of substance use and impaired driving, the notice reads. In New Jersey, the Cannabis Regulatory Commission has begun to host roundtable discussions during which it says it will seek input on the state's medical cannabis industry.
Speaker 1:The sessions come as New Jersey is experiencing the same decline in medical cannabis sales and patient numbers that has occurred in every state to legalize cannabis for adult use. In Colorado, for example, the first state to allow adult use sales, monthly medical cannabis sales have fallen to their lowest level since adult use sales went live. We wanna offer an opportunity for health care providers, active patients, federally and non federally qualified health centers, and operational businesses to express their opinions and share valuable feedback on critical issues related to cannabis regulation and the cannabis industry in New Jersey, said commissioner, Krista Nash, in the CRC's announcement. Two researchers from the University of California, San Diego, set out to determine why some cannabis consumers purchase illegal products and what might redirect these consumers toward legal products. For the study, just under 1,000 adults who live in an adult use state and who have consumed cannabis participated.
Speaker 1:These adults could choose whether to buy cannabis from a legal shop or from an illegal dealer. They found that the likelihood of choosing legal cannabis increased with a higher quality, the presence of a lab test, a shorter distance to seller, a higher THC level, and a lower price. Overall, quality and accessibility were perceived to be the most important for legal cannabis, and price was perceived to be the most important for illegal cannabis. From a policy perspective, this raises a few options for lawmakers and regulators, though each choice comes with a trade off the researchers noted. Those policy considerations include improving quality, ensuring safety, allowing delivery services, increasing dispensary density, and lowering prices and taxes of legal cannabis.
Speaker 1:In Kentucky, nearly 5,000 applications have been submitted for its new medical cannabis program. In Pennsylvania, state representatives Emily Kinkade and Aaron Coffer, a Democrat and a Republican respectively, introduced House Bill 2,500. The lawmakers first put forward their plan for this bill in a June memo to house colleagues. In the memo, they pointed out that Pennsylvania is almost completely surrounded by states with legal adult use. The bill would take a similar approach to neighboring states like New Jersey and New York by prioritizing business applicants who are minorities or veterans, and it would also clear past convictions.
Speaker 1:However, it proposes putting the adult use program under the state's Department of Agriculture, an atypical approach as most states create a standalone body. While governor Josh Shapiro also supports adult use and Dems have taken a majority in the house, senate Republicans could still block reform. In New York state, one office of cannabis management personnel issue has been up in the air since March. Now according to the Albany Times Union and numerous other outlets, Damian Fagan, OCM's chief equity officer, will resign from his position at the November, officials said. The departure will take place even as a recently concluded investigation by the state inspector general's office did not substantiate allegations that Fagan had used the office's regulatory authority to punish a cannabis processor who had spoken out last year about unlawful conduct in New York's marijuana industry.
Speaker 1:Fagan, who was appointed as the cannabis officer's chief equity officer in 2022, was placed on leave in March pending the outcome of the inspector general's investigation of the allegations. I wanna thank Cannabis Wire for the news. Subscribe to Cannabis Wire at cannabiswire.com. That's one word, cannabiswire.com. Welcome, Tavian.
Speaker 2:Hello. How you doing, Herb? How's everything today?
Speaker 1:I'm good. I'm good. Thank you for making the time. So tell us a little bit about, SINE and, on on the national side, and then a little bit about what you're doing, with the New York chapter.
Speaker 2:Seeing Social Equity Empowerment Network started out in Illinois by Belicia Royce, the wonderful black woman in the space, really powerful leader. And she didn't see any representation inside of the Illinois cannabis market. And so she had taken it upon herself to first start advocating and and then eventually became a lobbyist, started to lobby for some of the changes in their law to to introduce social equity into their language and and their process. And eventually, from lobbying, decided to start seeing and started this national chapter. They eventually actually got some social equity packages put through in Illinois, which has opened up.
Speaker 2:Mhmm. I don't wanna say the floodgates, but has opened up the market to black and Afro Latinx individuals in the state. So the original adult use law did not have social equity component? There may have been, like, some social equity component, but it was, like, disabled veterans.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 2:It was very limited in the mechanism in which they used to score the social equity advantaged, like, disabled veterans
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 2:Over everyone else. And so you ended up not seeing the representation that you wanna see. I and, honestly, like, this is something that that we see across the country. Like, right now Mhmm. In New York, this is what we're seeing.
Speaker 2:We have an amazing social equity language in our legislation. MRTA really lays out the need for restitution and repair to communities disproportionately harmed by the war on drugs. And 60 plus percent of licensing has went to social equity applicants. Mhmm.
Speaker 1:But I
Speaker 2:think it's important to note when you look into that data, only 6% are from communities disproportionately impacted, CDIs. Mhmm. And that's I don't think that actually captures the spirit of what the MRTA was looking to do as far as leverage the cannabis market in order to bring some sort of economic justice into the sphere. And I have a very specific definition for economic justice. I could get into that a little bit later, but we're not quite where we want it to be.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 2:Right? And so even with the language and the intent, you know, they say the intent paves the road to hell. I don't think we're gonna help, but I think that we have to be very aware and intentional about how these things are being rolled out and continuing to push towards the spirit in which the legislation, was written. And so, yeah, that's why I started the New York chapter, basically. I I heard Felicia speak and present and seen on a national level, a part of their mission is a cooperative advocate.
Speaker 2:And I had planned on starting my own work on cooperative business in cannabis. And so that really spoke to me outside of, helping, the black and Afro Latinx individuals into the space and educate around, how to erect a business in a space. But that really caught to me. I see cooperative models, economic models as the sort of systems change economic systems change that can bring us to a place where you can then reach to economic justice as a, you know, as a North Star. But I think that the economic justice is in a very specific context.
Speaker 2:In that context being non hierarchical, non exploitative models. And so the cooperative model is, economic way to do that is it's an economic structure model where you can, you know, every worker is an owner. Everyone has equity. One member, one vote is a true small d democratic process. And so yeah, I decided to start the New York chapter and really when when I first started the New York chapter and getting laid the land, I didn't at that moment, yet have the idea to fully lean into cooperative.
Speaker 2:But as I went through, we have a cooperative license type in New York, a collective license type in New York that hasn't been released yet, but but the regulations are coming out. But as I was, you know, going to different education forums with different, other nonprofit, cannabis nonprofits, with the Office of Cannabis Management, I was a part of the, the OCMs CCTM program. That's the cannabis compliance and training mentorship program. And as I was going through a bunch of these different, forums and courses and platforms, I didn't really see anyone educating or uplifting the cooperative model or the license type.
Speaker 1:No. You're right. I mean, there had been very little discussion about what the cooperative license would look like.
Speaker 2:Yeah. And so I I I decided to, fill that void, basically. And since we were a cooperative advocate and and I had started doing my studies in in readings and academies in in a cooperative work, I wanted to really be a liaison between those two sectors.
Speaker 1:When you're out there speaking to people, what's been the response so far?
Speaker 2:Like, on an organizational level or response from the public in general?
Speaker 1:Individuals interested in participating in the cannabis market in New York state.
Speaker 2:So I think the public in general, there isn't a a robust collective consciousness or zeitgeist of cooperative or collective models and work or even mutual aid, even though, especially in our culture, you know, susus and things of that sort, we have a deep history of mutual aid, right, which then builds into collectivism, which then builds into cooperative, models, which is when you say cooperative, you're talking about a actual legal structure and model. Right? I think people often want want to work together. Right? Like, we are greparious by nature.
Speaker 2:And there's always talk about, especially in black and Afro Latinx communities, understanding the social economic history and and genealogy in which we come from and knowing how high the cap x to enter this industry and market is, the idea to work together quickly comes across your table. And what I think is incumbent upon me in seeing New York is to move from the abstract of working together to a plan in a very specific model in cooperatives. What is the legal structure? How are agreements structured?
Speaker 1:Mhmm.
Speaker 2:How do we actually develop the infrastructure and communication networks necessary in order to actually be a cooperative? And so plenty of energy plenty of energy on working together. And and I wanna capture that energy and actually, you know, move that energy, focus it into a structured, businesses. Structured businesses and and cooperatives in in New York state.
Speaker 1:Alright. Excellent. You know, I wanted to talk a little bit about your background. I I I see, you know, on LinkedIn, right, the professional network. Mhmm.
Speaker 1:You said you're a grown and sales specialist for over twenty years now. Cannabis hasn't been legal in The US anywhere for twenty years. So, so what's the, what's your background?
Speaker 2:My background is as a legacy operator as we call it affectionately. And that's basically folks who were providing medicine distribution of cannabis throughout America at least five to ten years prior to legalization. And I I like to make that distinction because there's a lot of other operators now that weren't legacy operators because they didn't start to operate until it was legal and it was this Mhmm. Huge gray zone. Right?
Speaker 2:But but for the folks who were operating in full, you know, criminalization Mhmm. Those are legacy operators. I grew up in Brownsville, Brooklyn, New York. And
Speaker 1:I
Speaker 2:tell you my first first story.
Speaker 1:Mhmm.
Speaker 2:Went to Brooklyn Tech. Me and my buddies, like, maybe freshman year or high school.
Speaker 1:Let me just say, I mean, Brooklyn Tech is is one of the premier high schools, one of premier public high schools in, in New York City.
Speaker 2:Yes. Yes. It's a it's a specialized high school. You have to pass the test. You know?
Speaker 2:It's an amazing community. Very fortunate to have been able to make it from Brownsville to to Brooklyn Tech as a launchpad. And so we're in Fort Green Park right across the street Mhmm. Smoking. We're leaving, finishing off our Blunt.
Speaker 2:And, like, Fort Green was just getting gentrified at this time. It it was So
Speaker 1:you and you're you're about 14 at this time?
Speaker 2:Yeah. Yeah. And and it was just getting gentrified. Actually, my buddy still lived in Carroll Gardens. He now they had to move out a couple of years later after being pushed out, like, deep into Flatbush.
Speaker 2:But and if you know Brooklyn, you know what that geography means. But as we're walking down the block, this white woman behind us, she she smelled what we were smoking. She said, hey. I'm new to town. Just got here from Texas.
Speaker 2:Just moved into the neighborhood. Don't know anyone. Would you be able to, you know, you smell good? Would you be able to help me to procure anything? And at that time, I had never sold anything, distributed anything.
Speaker 2:Mhmm. And upon reflection in my adult years, I realized that so I told her yes. And I realized I told her yes because I had this image in my mind of who I was supposed to be. I was supposed to be the drug dealer.
Speaker 1:But at the same time, you're also in this premier school.
Speaker 2:I am in the premier school, and that was a culture shock.
Speaker 1:So why not think of yourself as a good or very good student?
Speaker 2:Yeah. I mean, it's it's hard to see yourself that way. It was a culture shock. It's hard to see yourself that way when you're inundated with your body being criminal. Mhmm.
Speaker 2:Criminality. Right? Like, growing up in Brownsville, it was called the impact zone during the Giuliani years. We would get flooded with blue and whites. We had many precincts on the block.
Speaker 2:Oh, no. I will walk past many precincts. I I don't know a black man that grew up in Brooklyn that hasn't been stopped in France or had a policeman's gun drawn. So the socialization in my body being criminal was way deeper, you know, on a subconscious level than, you know, me being able to get into Brooklyn Tech that year. Mhmm.
Speaker 2:Right? And, you know, at that age, sometimes you just don't have you have good feelings about yourself. You don't have the language or the expression for it. Right? But I I did have the language and expression for being a a a truck dealer, quote unquote.
Speaker 2:Mhmm.
Speaker 1:So you told this woman yes.
Speaker 2:I told her yes. I told her yes, and I went into some projects that weren't mine.
Speaker 1:Well, that that was daring in itself.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Exactly. In in in Brownsville at that. And, a a lovely Rastafari gentleman, and we know the Rastafari's have stewarded this plant more than any other culture people you can name. They are the reason why we now have this legal market if you ask me, but lovely Rastafar gentleman sold me my first ounce.
Speaker 2:I sold it to her. And I was doing it ever since. I was doing it ever since. And eventually, that landed me, in Colorado, where I was by coastal, I set up a couple of grow operations out there, which gave me my experience in, you know, setting up facilities and nutrients and and understanding just the the economics around it, the the whole process. And at that point, that really gave me, a good insight for seed to sell.
Speaker 2:Mhmm. At first, I was retail distributing, eventually became wholesale distributor. But then once we went out to Colorado, really got to understand how the plant came along, how what was the process Mhmm. Why I was paying the prices I was paying and maybe why I shouldn't have been paying the prices I was paying. Right?
Speaker 2:So, yeah, that was great experience. And once, Jersey at first and then shortly thereafter, New York started to decide to become legal. I said, let me let me take this experience in Colorado since that was legal in, henceforth, legitimate. Let me take that quote, unquote with even though I had a dozen years of legitimate knowledge, which which I now hold as legitimate knowledge. But in that time, I didn't hold it as legitimate knowledge.
Speaker 2:But let me take this Colorado experience in in because they were legal, and take that and bring it back to New York and leverage that expertise in this new version of market to to try to find work or consult, etc, etc. Eventually, though, as I was by coast to, but still on the East Coast, doing wholesale distribution, there was one trip south, and I was on a turnpike, with about 20 pounds in my trunk. And I had just, had my son. He's about a year old. And the thought hit me that I could lose the opportunity of being a father for something that if I was
Speaker 1:Mhmm. You
Speaker 2:know, 500 miles away, wouldn't have been a problem. And and and it it it tore me the stress. I grew up in a single parent household, without my father. And so that thought devastated me. And that's when I decided that at the end of the turnpike, that's when I decided to live my activism and be a voice for legacy operators, kind of come out the closet in a way and say, no, my experience is legitimate.
Speaker 2:You're not gonna take this market away from me without me saying anything. Right? You will hear my voice, you will hear my advocacy, you will hear my story, and all the stories that look like mine. Most importantly, I wanted to humanize myself and my counterparts. Because, again, like I said, I had been fully indoctrinated in my criminalization, me being a criminal.
Speaker 2:Right? Which is subhuman
Speaker 1:Mhmm.
Speaker 2:For those who don't know. And so really being able to to say I will not be a subhuman anymore. I will I will fully identify in all of my human in all of my lived experience and and hold that with full legitimacy as any CPA or lawyer or you name it marketer who been doing marketing for fifteen years, but never sold cannabis. But now you're gonna tell me, the person who's been selling cannabis for fifteen years, what I need to do in order to make right? It just I was like, no.
Speaker 2:I I won't stand for it. And, if anything, I I could be a counterweight in in a wedge for folks in my community to actually see themselves represented in the space.
Speaker 1:Now being being that voice, in in 2022, you you had an article in The Nation, which is pretty impressive. And the article was called, the war on weed decimated my community. Will there be restitution? You know, one of the arguments you're making there is that legalization is or should be about restitution. So we just wanna ask why?
Speaker 1:Why should it be about restitution? Why shouldn't it be about, you know, the state making as much tax money as the state can make?
Speaker 2:Because the state already made that tax money on our bodies. Mhmm. Cannabis for me is a wedge issue for justice. It it crosses so many different has so many intersections of of justice work across real estate, medicinal justice, even food justice, when you start talking about it as a crop. And, it's a very unambiguous thing that we can point to to say that the state did this thing and it was racialized, unambiguously racialized, and the enforcement of it was racialized
Speaker 1:Mhmm.
Speaker 2:Unambiguously. On a federal and multiple state levels, this has been cooperated through data and research and reports on and on. Usually, the racialization of a sector or something is obfuscated, and and you have things to distract you from how it's being racialized or fuzzy numbers or but but with cannabis, it there there was no ambiguity. You know exactly why we made it criminal. We know exactly who we were going to target once it did become criminal.
Speaker 2:And then we went about doing that. Right. And so let's talk the numbers. 80% of arrests in incarcerations were black and Afro Latino, Latina, folks.
Speaker 1:Mhmm.
Speaker 2:Right? And that that's across the nation. Across the nation. You clearly see who this was for and and how it was being, executed. And we know the state had this in mind.
Speaker 2:And and so that at that point, for me, it becomes, not even a matter of rest a matter of restitution, but also a matter of reparation for those communities. I just don't see how you can have the state can target a community disenfranchise community, criminalize the community, the economic loss that happens to that community because of those disruptions in your life. Even if you was arrested and wasn't incarcerated, those disruptions in your life, losing a job, not having access to different loans
Speaker 1:and
Speaker 2:schooling and food and on and on, housing, on and on. All of those opportunities lost. And for me, it's always important to understand that those opportunities were were generational, that the loss was generational. The some things you just can't get back. And so that repair that restitution for me also has to be generational.
Speaker 2:And I'll dovetail that with the point I was making earlier about economic justice. I put it in this context of non harmful, non exploitative economies. But when we're talking about economic justice and and generational wealth, it's also important to speak about not only capital redistribution, but asset redistribution. And so always understanding, you know, as slaves, our bodies were assets. The opportunities we were kept from from life insurance, death insurance, Social Security for the longest times, veterans insurance for the longest times, etcetera.
Speaker 2:The things that were kept from us were assets, even how we behaved as prisoners become a slave labor again, is assets. And so I always wanna speak about economic justice and bring in the conversation of asset redistribution and distribution to them in general, because I don't think we see economic justice without that, and we definitely don't see generational wealth without that. And so, you know, the state has a lot of work to do across the nation, and and we'll see how this, rescheduling, descheduling conversation grows out, and we'll see, is it gonna be the feds that do it? Is it gonna be congress? How exactly?
Speaker 2:What is the mechanism in which we take action, which is gonna be very important because the mechanism will determine how much leverage we have for calling for that sort of, restitution and reparations. So it's it's super important for folks who don't know. You you should be, looking towards the scheduling. You should be looking towards congress as far as the mechanism to to make these changes. But, yeah, I don't I don't think, you know, we right before we got on, we was having a conversation about the election and and some of our original sense.
Speaker 2:I don't think we start to heal unless we actually address those things. And unless we actually look it in the eye and say, okay. This is what we did purposefully, and this is what we're gonna do now with intention to repair those things that we did. Right? And and I noticed the Supreme Court has has said that any sort of repair like that is now non constitutional.
Speaker 2:You can't use race, religion, creed, etcetera. But that's exactly what you used in order to to to put us in that position in the first place. And so there's there's a lot there. Again, the intersection, cannabis is like a microcosm of of this this macro thing that we're dealing with.
Speaker 1:Well, I wanted to ask. So so now as the cannabis, you know, sort of industry shifts from illicit to legal, what what is it that you're seeing?
Speaker 2:Well, right now, there's, still a lot of gray area. We're still trying to figure out how to roll out the market. It's hard to to produce some of these outcomes that's in the legislation Mhmm. Without investment. Right?
Speaker 2:And so I haven't seen the necessary budget or investment into the individuals in in in our community or community writ large, to actually establish a foothold in the industry that can start to leverage, like, it hasn't happened yet. You know, there's been initiatives here and some education there and some technical assistance over here. But in a comprehensive and robust manner, I haven't seen the investment necessary in order to to actually see through what MRTA is trying to see through with with social equity. And I actually think that now that the governor has, kinda turned the heat up on the office and point into the issues that were inside of the, rollout, some understandable, some not understandable. I I like to take a measured approach.
Speaker 2:We know there's gonna be bumps in the road, you know, but we strive for it. But if you're gonna raise the heat up, then I think you also need to to be a part of the solution. Mhmm. And maybe you need to actually put a a line item in your budget that is geared towards CDIs, communities disproportionately impacted. The same way you put a line item in your budget for farmers or small distressed farmers.
Speaker 2:Right? That to me is actually getting towards a solution. But that's what I've been seeing, you know, it's it's kinda the same old same old. Now the card the card program was amazing. And I wish we were able to see a lot more of those businesses actually be stood up.
Speaker 2:Mhmm. But, unfortunately, again, without a budget, without capital, you're still asking those individuals who were formerly incarcerated or justice impacted to have $23,000,000 to start a business. And it it's incongruent at best.
Speaker 1:It's hard to do with private equity at a time with rising interest rates, which means that the licensee has to pay a lot more.
Speaker 2:And not only that, I've been in multiple conversations as a intermediary or negotiator with with card licensees in in DC private equity folks, and they will take your business from if you allow for it. And and they'll make it sound sweet the whole way. And not just as far as, like, percentage and equity, but decision making powers as well. You kinda see that the more dollars you ask for, the less voice you have in your business. And that's been a trend.
Speaker 2:I haven't really seen, you know, the angel investor sort of funds out there yet. Hopefully, some of those things will start to develop or the state actually puts a a line item in their budget that would allow for organizations like mine to actually do the technical assistance and provide the the resources needed in order for these businesses to stand themselves up, which I would like to speak about a little bit. Because, in the MRTA, it specifically states
Speaker 1:a
Speaker 2:couple of things that's supposed to come to these communities. Mhmm. One is is zero or low interest loans and grants. We haven't seen those yet. Incubators, Now there was the CCTM program, the cannabis compliance training and mentorship program, but I wouldn't call that an incubator as much as, like, a webinar, which was great.
Speaker 2:It was amazing information. Definitely suggested, like, really, really good, but not a incubator. Not not something that's gonna help you stand up your business. Right? And have the support systems in legal and compliance and taxes to get you over the hump.
Speaker 2:And so, one of the things that I started to try to develop is this incubator. And the lens in which I do my work in is is anti racist systems change. And so I wanted to develop an incubator that really, on all levels, kinda spoke to anti racist systems change. And so, again, the cooperative model being economic systems change for me, put in the worker and the equity tying those things together, for labor sovereignty, for me, it's just is so impactful Mhmm. When you start speaking about economic systems change.
Speaker 2:And then having those, those businesses being constituted with with black and Afro Latinx members from CDIs. And those members be worker owners. Right? And so you increase access to equity just by every worker being owner in equity. Right?
Speaker 2:Because each of those worker owners has a voice. And we're trying to develop that integrated with a farmers guild. So that's a business, the business cooperative farmers working on a large scale level to have their biomass process and marketed and put on shelves through a guild that would manage all the back end things so the farmers can just focus on farming. And by integrating these two things, what you do is you put the workers in control of mode of production, which is, you know, for those who are politically educated and have an understanding of how economics and governance work together. That's a huge deal.
Speaker 2:Mhmm. That's a huge deal. And so that's kind of that's the work that we're doing in developing this cooperative ecosystem on a distribution side of the supply chain. Again, to really put the mode of production into those, into those worker owned businesses, into those, cooperatives, former cooperatives. And a part of that incubator is providing a a pilot hub for them to actually operate the business and get the the training and worker workforce development necessary to upscale to run those businesses and expand.
Speaker 2:And what you do with that is you remove the CapEx that we were talking about, the the capital expenditure needed in order to stand up this business. So instead of me either going through private investor route or some predatory lending route or, you know, trying to scrape all of my friends and family's life savings together in order to make this happen. Right? Having a facility that you could just walk in turnkey sort of operation, get the training, get the technical assistance, get the the compliance, all of these things on the back end, you know, you have that that support system, that net that net there for you. And it's planned to be a eighteen month incubator where you can really get your feet wet, get some cash flow going, without having that CapEx initially.
Speaker 2:And then as they exit the pilot, facility, they would expand on the network in order to increase our our processing capabilities for the Farmers Guild. So, yeah, that's that's the vision.
Speaker 1:Alright. Well, good luck with that. Tavian Crossland, I wanna thank you for spending, the time with us today. Where can people find out more information on SCENE? I I know that there's also a couple of funds that SCENE has has.
Speaker 1:Where can people contribute?
Speaker 2:You can go to equityempower.org, and that's our, national chapter. And you can donate there. You can sponsor a membership. You can become a member. You can find me on LinkedIn, as you said.
Speaker 2:And also, my email, Tavian.Crossland@gmail.com. That's myfirst.lastname@gmail.com. And I am open to the public for assistance or technical assistance, consultancy. If you are from a CDI, you know, we don't charge anything. All of our assistance is free.
Speaker 2:All of our education and programming is free
Speaker 1:It's great.
Speaker 2:For those communities. So, yeah, check us out.
Speaker 1:Alright. Thank you very much. Thank you, Herb. In our licensing highlight segment, I speak with John Vavalo, CEO of Central Processors New York. John has nearly ten years experience in the legal cannabis market.
Speaker 1:Hello, John.
Speaker 3:Hey. Good afternoon. How are you?
Speaker 1:Good. Good. In each of my episodes, I like to, highlight, licensee, a New York state licensee. So I wanted to talk about processors, what processors do, and their their role in the supply chain.
Speaker 3:Yeah. So processors, we provide a a very important link, right, between the farmers and the retailers. Our primary mission is to take all the biomass flower products that are being produced and converting them into really the products that end up in market packaged and branded. For example, we make gummies, chocolates, vape pens. Our job is to take anything that's non flour and get it to the retailers for consumption by consumers.
Speaker 1:Alright. So your your role is to interact with the cultivator, with the farmer?
Speaker 3:Yes.
Speaker 1:And then you purchase the flour on behalf of a company or or on your own behalf?
Speaker 3:Yeah. So we do it on on behalf of our company. We are also in a unique position because we're also a cultivator. We have a 90,000 square foot greenhouse in Syracuse that we grow, but the the most of our material from there is actually made into flower products. So oddly enough, most of that doesn't get manufactured in our facility.
Speaker 3:Most of what we use for our finished goods, we go out, we work with farmers. We procure the biomass, we bring it into our facility, we make sure that it's dry, we make sure that there's no pesticides, no metals, and then we will extract that material to get our base oil. So the extraction process, can be any number of methodologies. We use ethanol extraction here. We have c o two extraction here.
Speaker 3:We have butane extraction that we're working on right now. So we're able to essentially take that flower material, and we use a solvent. In this case, I'll use ethanol for the example. We mix it with a very cold ethanol through a very aggressive agitation. We allow the cannabinoids to be released from the plant into the solvent.
Speaker 3:We then capture the solvent, filter out all the plant material, and now you have ethanol that's very rich in cannabinoids. So then we'll take that material and we will remove all the ethanol from it, and that ethanol is all completely reused. We put that back into our process, and what we're left with is what we in the industry call a crude oil. That crude is usually in the 60% THC range, but it still contains a lot of fats and lipids, and it'll be very dark in color from chlorophyll and other impurities that are washed out of the plant. We will then send that to distillation, in most cases.
Speaker 3:And through the distillation process, we remove those fats and lipids. And what we're left with is generally a a 90 plus percent very beautiful golden amber colored distillate, which is then used, to go in all of our products from vape pens to gummies, etcetera.
Speaker 1:Alright. So you you mentioned the products. I I I, especially for, listeners who are new to to cannabis, I wanted to go through each of the products and and you sort of give us a little lesson on on on each of the products. So the first one is just plain flour. So what is it that you do?
Speaker 1:What what what do you mean by flour?
Speaker 3:Yeah. So flour is, quite literally we will go in our greenhouse. We will grow the plants. We harvest the plants. We'll then dry the plants, separating them from the stalks into smaller bits, and, then they get a drying process that can take up to fourteen days.
Speaker 3:Once we hit the right parameters for our team, which is usually moisture content, then it will get sent over to our curing room where it's separated further from any of the stalks and stems and everything. And the bud flower that the people are most used to seeing in a jar, that material will cure for another could be up to thirty days depending on the different phenotypes that we're we're using at the time. So anywhere from fourteen to really thirty days. And then that material, once the cultivation team deems it perfect, then it gets jarred, it gets packaged, or it gets sent off to be made into pre rolls. During that process, we're also testing for molds.
Speaker 3:We're testing for other, you know, biologicals, impurities, metals, pesticides, etcetera, and deeming that it's a a product that is is actually worth going to be a packaged flower material that people will be inhaling.
Speaker 1:And then that flower makes its way to the stores?
Speaker 3:Correct. Yep. Totally packaged and ready for consumption.
Speaker 1:And you mentioned pre rolls. Pre rolls is the next one.
Speaker 3:Yeah. So, basically, we'll use our, you know, smaller product or, you know, some of the product that we wouldn't deem perfect jar ready flour that will get ground up to a certain spec and then get made into pre rolls. And the pre rolls that we do are half grams, full grams. We do ones that are larger than grams. We do two gram blunts, and all that material is done via machine or in some cases, even hand packed.
Speaker 1:Alright. And the the next one I think is the one that most people sort of are are used to hearing about right now is, gummies.
Speaker 3:Yeah. So gummies are, an interesting one because we make a couple different types of gummies here. We'll do gummies from distillate where we'll really just take our distillate in its in its raw form, and, we'll add it to our gummies. We do that in our kinda, I would say, our least expensive line because it's the least amount of work and effort and lowest cost to us. So, like, our generic AF line, that's what that material is.
Speaker 3:We also will take that distillate and and make a water soluble material out of it, which, just has a faster and higher absorption rate.
Speaker 1:Mhmm. And
Speaker 3:we'll use that in, like, our High Peaks gummies, which are
Speaker 1:a little bit higher cost, you know, I think a
Speaker 3:a much higher quality product. We also make a live rosin, which is where we will fresh freeze plant material, and we extract it using no solvent. So really just using ice water as a solvent. That material then gets freeze dried and pressed a few times. And they, through the voodoo they do, we end up with what's called a rosin product, which is really about as close to the raw essence of the plant material as you can get in an extract.
Speaker 3:And then that material goes into into gummies as well or can be sold just as is. In the market today, there's a lot of gummies, and that's really was born out of necessity because the market had a lot of early biomass that wasn't fit for flower consumption. And so you're able to extract it using different solvents and, get that material into what could then be hand poured into gummy molds. And so the market as a whole has been able to do that, so there's been a lot
Speaker 1:of different gummy brands. We're We're
Speaker 3:gonna start to see that start to
Speaker 1:thin out. There will be less gummy brands in
Speaker 3:the near future because people have to move to scale. And as the scale of the market increases, you'll need to have much larger producers of gummies. So like for example, you can hand pour gummies. You might be able to do a few thousand gummies a day in a small kitchen hand pouring. You know, we can do, you know, 25 to 40,000 gummies an hour here through our automated, filling system here.
Speaker 3:So quite a different order of magnitude as we talk about the long term, look in the market.
Speaker 1:The next product is, the vape cartridge.
Speaker 3:Vapes, very large segment of the market, you know, a very easy way to consume cannabis, obviously. So that material, we're just taking our pure distillate. We're reincorporating terpenes that we extracted through c o two or other methods. So depending on the flavor profile we're going through or which different genetic we use. So, you know, let's say we're doing train wreck, we'll take the terpenes from the train wreck cultivar.
Speaker 3:We'll reincorporate those in a, in the perfect concentration to allow the distal to be flowable and vapeable and really leads to a nice product. So we use all, cannabis derived terpenes for for most of our products.
Speaker 1:What's your most popular product right now?
Speaker 3:Number one for us is flour as I think is pretty standard for people that are are producing a high quality flour. You know, the market is always looking for more and better flower. I think the full market breakdown is, you know, 50% belongs to pure flower and pre rolls, and that's pretty standard across a lot of markets. You know, our number one non flower product is definitely our generic gummies. That's almost half of our, other products sold or our generic gummies, and they're really high quality.
Speaker 3:They do exactly what they set out to do, and they're kinda no frills. So you're getting a really high quality gummy at a very nice price point and
Speaker 1:I think that's the driver for that particular product line. And what are some of the names that people can look for?
Speaker 3:Yeah. So the generic AF are the generic white gummy bags. There's about, I think we've got 12 flavors in the market right now of those. High Peaks gummies would probably be the next ones. High Peaks are all black branding with white logos.
Speaker 3:Those are gonna be your effect based gummies. So, you know, like, we've got a good night guava, super sleeper, which is THC, CBD, and CBN. The CBN really does a good job assisting in sleep sleep quality. I use that particular product. I have a trouble sleeping.
Speaker 3:And then our other ones are some of our energy based gummies, which are, you know, CBG and THCV products mixed with THC, and some of our other gummies. And those have been very well received. Those have been limited released into the market, but everywhere we've released them, they've sold out. So we're pretty excited about that one.
Speaker 1:Can you talk a little bit about your background and how you came to to work in cannabis?
Speaker 3:Yeah. So I, used to work in biofuels, and then about twelve years ago, my mother got sick, stage four cancer. I moved back to Syracuse to take care of her.
Speaker 1:Oh, I'm sorry.
Speaker 3:Yeah. It was, it was pretty devastating. I'm an only child, so there wasn't really anybody else to rely on. So moved back, took care of her. You know, she passed in about eight months.
Speaker 3:And, you know, my father brought a newspaper article. One day we were sitting together and he said, look at this. We could have just given mom a joint and she would have been all better and, you know, we got a a laugh out of it. And so I was reading the articles and stuff and I was like, wow. Mhmm.
Speaker 3:The efficacy of cannabis to me, it speaks volumes. That was really early in research. And so I started doing a lot of other research on my own, started working with a couple universities, really looked at it, and I said, wow. This is you know, first of all, how are we not giving stage four cancer patients anything that makes them comfortable, number one. Mhmm.
Speaker 3:But number two, this one actually works, and one of her issues was appetite. And so this helps with appetite for for cancer patients. And so I was, like, blown away by the fact that something that, you know, people have casually been using for thousands of years also has this this crazy medical efficacy. So I went down the path of applying for one of the medical licenses here in New York. I started a company called New Yorkana, which is now operating as acreage holdings.
Speaker 3:So it's one of the large MSOs here. My original premise for that company was very medically focused. And, you know, I did a TED talk a few years ago, which is kind of old now, but it really talked about sort of the struggle of some families with children that suffer from, you know, epilepsy and severe developmental disabilities and just how much of a positive impact cannabis could have. And it's funny because I've really, evolved my view to say, we all know people that, you know, go have a couple beers after work to decompress. Well, that's a means of self medicating.
Speaker 3:Right?
Speaker 1:Mhmm.
Speaker 3:It's no different than folks that, you know, go home and wanna smoke a joint or wanna take a gummy to relax in the evening. That's another means of self medicating. So I've really widened my gaze to what the efficacy actually looks like. I don't I think the medical efficacy side is is really, really important, but I think the way that people self medicate you know, alcohol is really bad for you. Right?
Speaker 3:I still enjoy it. But I think cannabis is another solution there for folks to self medicate and also people to medicate from a real medicinal standpoint. So I just think there's a lot of really special opportunity to the plant. And so I got in it, founded that company. I went and joined another group after that, and then I started, Central Processors as a hemp company really to focus on scaling the business because my big concern was we were dealing in milligrams.
Speaker 3:And I thought as we start to look at this thing as a national or global situation, we would wanna be able to talk in kilos and metric tons. And so we did that. We scaled our hemp company. We were, you know, able to ship 10,000 kilos a month. We were shipping all over the world, and then really the the hemp collapse came.
Speaker 3:And for us, it happened at a time where I think we made it a lot longer than other people, but we, were able to flex and and switch that right over to a cannabis license here in New York. So it worked out very well for us.
Speaker 1:Now you've been one of the strong advocates for processors, for cultivators, in New York state, over the last, eighteen months, two years. What's your sense of where the market currently stands?
Speaker 3:Yeah. So I I started an organization, with a few other folks called, ANYCP, which is the Association of New York Cannabis Processors. It was really set out to focus specifically on the supply side, manufacturers. So we have a great deal, I think, of the total registered processors, operational processors, we probably have 75% of those folks are involved with us. And the entire concept is, you know, how do we advocate for the processors?
Speaker 3:Because often in the media, you hear about, you know, the farmers and their plight, which is important. They have 380, you know, licensees. And the the dispensaries are gonna have, you know, hundreds and hundreds and probably at some point thousands. So there's a lot of voices, but the manufacturing side doesn't ever really need to be that big. So it's gonna always be a small piece of the market, but really needs an outsized voice based on how important it is to the supply chain.
Speaker 3:And so, you know, we didn't think we were really being heard. So I went out there to start to lobby for things and really push and advocate for our segment. We also work with the farmers. We work with the retailers. We, help to lobby for them as well.
Speaker 3:But our primary objective is to really focus on the supply side, manufacturing.
Speaker 1:Mhmm.
Speaker 3:The market today, I I think your next question was sort of about the market. What do I think of the market? I think we have a little ways to go yet. It's very exciting to see the expansion and to watch how far we've come. I still think we'll do a billion dollars in the New York market this year.
Speaker 3:And you hear a lot of folks still saying farmers are still sitting on biomass and processors aren't able to get products to market. Well, we have an inherent issue in the market where we have this thing called inversion. So we can talk about the gray market. We can talk about, you know, how that's impacting negatively our market, which it is. Right?
Speaker 3:It's a big problem. But we also have a problem inside our market where there are certain folks bringing material in from out of state, and putting that into the regulated system.
Speaker 1:And that's what you mean by inversion as opposed to diversion, which is
Speaker 3:Correct. Diversion is what we're always worried about. Right? The rules are set up to be very strict on diversion. You know, the way we monitor our employees and everything, like, wanna make sure they don't put a nug in their pocket and walk out of the cultivation facility.
Speaker 3:But, you know, meanwhile, there's people importing thousands of pounds of flour and distillate to be made into products here from outside the state. Mhmm. That's a major systemic issue because every pound that comes in displaces a pound that was grown by a New York farmer.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 3:Right? And that that perpetuation of issue is actually even magnified because it doesn't allow the cash flowing through the system in New York because that money leaves and goes somewhere else. And so if you don't have that in the system, it doesn't allow your smaller processors and growers to really innovate. And so we've inadvertently by allowing this to occur and everybody knows what's going on. Everybody, it's it's a joke, but it's not a joke and it's a really bad problem because if you run the numbers, which we have and I've been in this ten years, so and I've operated in almost every medical state on the East Coast, we've run the numbers.
Speaker 3:We should have no biomass in the system right now. No farmer should be sitting on biomass, and every processor should be getting product in the market.
Speaker 1:What's the rationale? What's the reason for the inversion? Is it that there there's not a flower in this state? Is it that the out of state flower, is
Speaker 3:is cheap? It's monetarily driven. Right? These guys are able to bring in material from Oklahoma, Michigan, California, these out West markets that have really commoditized already and they're able to buy it at, you know, hundreds of dollars a pound as opposed to, you know, here that the going rate for biomass should be the same as what they're able to get really high quality flower for, but it never lets our market get established. It doesn't let the market begin to innovate.
Speaker 3:It doesn't let the market commoditize the way it should. And it's not only bad for the market, it's criminal, right? And this is not one of these things where, you know, our industry, I believe, is very, very tight knit. Right? I've got guys that will call me and they'll ask a favor.
Speaker 3:I don't even think about it. I I do favors for people. I help people. I give guidance to people on how they should be conducting themselves and doing things. And our market is very, very tight.
Speaker 3:But the the legacy piece of our market has hung on to people aren't rats. You know? Snitches get stitches, right, whatever the the saying is, which isn't good because that stigma is totally wrong because it's hurting the dispensaries because they're bringing this stuff in and they're also selling into the gray market.
Speaker 1:Mhmm.
Speaker 3:Okay. That's hurting our dispensaries. It's hurting our supply side because our farmers ain't aren't able to get their biomass into manufacturing because there's not enough product moving on shelves because it's being fully dominated by products coming in from out of state. It's a major, major issue. Everybody knows about this issue in the market and it's like nobody, there's no one doing anything about it.
Speaker 3:And unfortunately some of our smaller farmers, some of our smaller processors probably aren't going to make it and I believe it's a direct result of sort of the inaction being taken against some of these folks. It's really sad. It's really unfortunate.
Speaker 1:So when you say inaction, who will be responsible for acting?
Speaker 3:You know, we I think we smash the OCM a lot. I think the industry as a whole and kind of the media smashes the OCM. And I don't I don't think that's what this is about. I think that the OCM was tasked with some things that it was just never gonna be able to handle. When we asked the OCM to handle the gray market, there could be 30,000 stores in New York state.
Speaker 3:Right? That's what we're talking about. That's that's an order of magnitude where the OCM is never going to be able to manage that. I love that the governor has sort of changed the narrative to go to local law enforcement. I think that's exactly what we need to do.
Speaker 3:And I need I think the OCM really needs to focus on the industry, the actual licensees. They should be the ones handling this. And I think that now they've been freed up from the gray market conversation. I know they're focused on getting licensing, but just as important as getting folks licensed is also focusing on compliance within the system.
Speaker 1:Mhmm.
Speaker 3:I've been audited here at our processing facility. It was a six hour event. I think they did a wonderful job. Our auditor was very, very good.
Speaker 1:This is an on-site audit?
Speaker 3:Correct. Yep. But there's only like 20 to 25 of us actually operating. There is no reason that they could not be in every one of these facilities. Now I've been doing this a long time now.
Speaker 3:I saw where there was gaps in what they were auditing and it's not an issue with the way that they are doing it. It's that they just don't know what they don't know. And I feel like that they need to invest some time with some of the stakeholders that do have some more experience and that can help guide them a little bit more. I would I try all the time. I do reach out to them.
Speaker 3:I do talk to them in my capacity with being the head of the processor association. I really try hard to to try to help, and I think that some of the leadership there before was not really interested in any of that. I think the new leadership seems to be very open to that. There are some really good folks at the OCM really trying hard to set up a wonderful program, and I think we'll get there. They just they need a little bit of help.
Speaker 3:They need a little bit of time, and and we're we're getting there. But the OCM really does need to aggressively look inside
Speaker 1:our
Speaker 3:our industry, inside our market, and look at some of the people and what they're doing. And very quickly, if you look at some of the numbers, you're like, dah. There's no way they're doing that. Right? There are actors that you could look at immediately and say, there is no possible way that they are doing the types of volumes that they're talking about today.
Speaker 3:It's impossible. It's a literal impossibility.
Speaker 1:You're saying it's it's impossible if they're operating completely within the bounds of, of the law?
Speaker 3:Yeah. I mean, we're I got a 90,000 square foot grow facility where we're growing to our capacity. We're allowed in there currently. I have a 30,000 square foot manufacturing facility. I have 50, union local three thirty eight is our union union workers here that do a very, very high quality job.
Speaker 3:I think we're one of the larger producers in the state, probably top five. And I look at some of the numbers, a few other folks are turning out, and I hear the numbers of employees they have and footprint they have, and there's there's no possible way they're doing the kind of volume they're doing. There's some of the ROs, some of the MSOs. There's an MSO in New York that has a hundred and $20,000,000 invested in their facility in cultivation, and they can't do the numbers that some of these folks are touting that I'm hearing out there. So it just it's pretty easy to track and trace this back even without BioTrac.
Speaker 3:I know I keep hearing once BioTrac's in place, we're gonna be able to track everything. Yeah.
Speaker 1:I did wanna touch on that. So the the the whole concept of seed to sale, right, which which, you know, part it's supposed to deal with diversion and inversion. So could you sort of could you describe what the the the concept of seed to sale is and and this whole discussion about BioTrac?
Speaker 3:Yeah. Absolutely. BioTrac is a third party provider that won a state contract to provide the backbone system for reporting. And so anytime a cultivator puts a plant, a seed in the ground or a live cutting in the ground, they have to track and it gets assigned an ID. That identifier is carried with the plant all the way through harvest, and then that is combined with a bunch of other plants into large lot numbers when you're doing your testing and your quality to determine, you know, these batches of flour being sold as flour.
Speaker 3:Then even larger batches get combined into extraction where their extraction in into a final distillate, and then that distillate is then tracked all the way through the final product to the point of sale, literally right through the dispensary to the consumer.
Speaker 1:Mhmm.
Speaker 3:So that system in theory, the concept of it is that it will be able to say, we should know exactly how much give or take probably a threshold of 5%, how much is grown to how much is produced. Those numbers should all match. And today they don't, they're not even close. And and so hopefully the implementation of BioTrac will take care of that. We are eight months behind, I I think, actually nine months behind on when BioTrac was supposed to be implemented.
Speaker 3:And I don't know what that is. We we haven't heard any transparency on why it hasn't been rolled out. I know it's a massive undertaking.
Speaker 1:Mhmm.
Speaker 3:I think that there is also the ability for when they're doing these audits to say, okay. Well, hey. You are still obligated to maintain records. Where did you get your biomass from? Okay.
Speaker 3:Great. Take down that information. And now go back to the farm and say, you know, hey, so and so said, you know, High Peaks Central Processor said that they bought, you know, a thousand pounds from you last harvest. Can we see your records? Can we see your cultivation records?
Speaker 3:Because we definitely know that there are some folks that didn't grow and just, you know, did some paperwork to bring flower in. And, again, that should stop under BioTrac, but I still think we'll have some of that. I think we'll still have some inversion. But there is definitely a a path right now without seed to sale to be able to track and trace what's happening out there and show that there's some things not happening correctly. So and I'm using the state's numbers by the way, you know, and and I don't think we get good enough numbers.
Speaker 3:I mean, the state of Ohio, which I was active in that program very early, we got very, very detailed reporting from from the state of Ohio. I I actually think kudos to Ohio. I think they do one of the best jobs of any state. Here, we get almost no transparency in the numbers. We we hear, oh, there's now this many dispensaries and this much revenue, and this is a basic percentage of the products that were were sold, but I'm just taking those basic numbers and running them out and I'm able to see with the most basic information that there's no possible way that that material that's in the market or in the system was made in New York and the farmers are still sitting on what they're sitting on and these processors, you know, haven't been and going through and making products from that material.
Speaker 3:So we know that it's not happening.
Speaker 1:Generally, though, what's your sense of of the future of the market? Are you optimistic as to where New York State is going?
Speaker 3:Very much so. I think as we're starting to see padlocking happening
Speaker 1:So with all that, you're still optimistic. That's great.
Speaker 3:I'm still optimistic. Yeah. I mean, so the stark reality is that the inversion hurts us today. It's been hurting us for the last six months.
Speaker 1:Mhmm.
Speaker 3:It's a systemic issue that needs to be cut off, and the folks that are engaging that activity should never be allowed to participate in the New York program ever again.
Speaker 1:Mhmm.
Speaker 3:I don't I don't waiver for that at all. Hands down. If you take that aside in another quarter, there should be enough sales occurring in the state with the amount of increased dispensaries that they're showing, if you look at their trajectory, there's gonna be enough of a market that that oddly enough after I just said all that, there's gonna be a supply side issue with farmers not growing enough because they were so hurt. They didn't grow a lot this year. And so by harvest in in third, fourth quarter of this year, I believe we will still be up against a a slight deficit coming into the new year and in early twenty five If we don't allow the farmers to grow more next year, we're gonna be in a real pickle next year with supply side because there isn't gonna be enough biomass.
Speaker 3:And that's something that I struggled with, this time last year having conversations with elected officials as well as our our farmers and, you know, especially the CFA folks. I'm like, look, I know everybody wants to be a micro business because they think that this is gonna be this wonderful vertical enterprise. But the reality is what you really should be asking for is more acreage. These guys growing outdoors, one acre is hard to live on. Mhmm.
Speaker 3:Five acres is a great little business. You know, even at commoditized bulk biomass pricing, it's, you know, 3,000,000 a year in revenue. You take all your costs and everything out. That's a small business probably profiting 6 to $800,000 a year. That makes it so that you can have a real compliance person tracking your stuff.
Speaker 3:It's so you can put in better infrastructure, so you can have some employees, so you can have a high higher quality biomass and maybe even some flower worthy product. That's a business. One acre is really not, which is why all a lot of these farmers are ejecting over to micro business. But every acre you take out of the system for somebody that converts to micro is an acre that's not grown now, right? That's probably 4,500, you know, depending on how good they are 2,500 pounds of biomass, it's now not going to hit the system.
Speaker 3:I mean, that's a lot of material that we we are going to desperately need end of this year, early next year.
Speaker 1:Okay. Well in there, thank you, John Vavalo, Ceo, central processors in New York.
Speaker 3:Thank you.
Speaker 1:Thanks for listening. We'll be back in two weeks with our season one finale. In that episode, I'll speak with Axel Burnaby, the former chief of staff and senior policy director for the New York State Office of Cannabis Management. In our licensee highlight segment, I speak with Paul Yao, cofounder of the travel agency, a partnership with the dough fund and one of the very first legal dispensaries opened in New York State. If you're enjoying the show, please leave us a rating and review on your favorite podcast platform.
Speaker 1:Platform. It helps new listeners find the show. Joint Session is produced by me, Herb Barbot, with additional production and engineering by Matt Patterson with Rebecca Malpica on digital marketing and social media. In addition, as always, thank you to Canvas Wire. You can find us on Instagram at jointsession.pod.
Speaker 1:That's one word jointsession.pod and on LinkedIn at joint session podcast. Until next time, this is Herb Balbo. Thank you.
