Joint Session: Diverse Voices in NYS Cannabis

Welcome to joint session, Diverse Voices in New York State Cannabis, where you'll hear from policymakers, legislators, thought leaders, licensees, advocates, and others interested in the state of the New York cannabis market. In this episode, I speak with attorney Jennifer Cabrera, a partner in Vicente LLP, a firm focused on cannabis law and policy. Jennifer outlines what licensees and applicants should be thinking about when planning to open a dispensary. In our licensee highlight segment, we speak with someone who has achieved her goal of opening a dispensary, Leanne Mata, CEO of the Brooklyn Cannabis Dispensary, Mata Juana. But first, let's take a spin around the news.

During the last two weeks, there's only one news item I'd like to discuss and that's the resignation of the New York State Office of Cannabis Management executive director, Christopher Alexander. Now there's no playbook for the creation of a new state agency. That virtually never happens. However, there is a playbook for the type of review that was done by the New York State Office of General Services. Anyone with New York State government experience knew what was coming.

These reviews always result in nominal recommendations that double as a rationale for making a leadership change. And certainly, nominal recommendations is what we received and now we are getting leadership change. My concern for the immediate future of the industry is that leadership changes will impede necessary decision making as the market evolves, additional licenses need to be granted, and new rounds of licensure need to open. This uncertainty will almost assuredly impact the ability to make new hires. Current staff may depart, go to other agencies, and even return to their old agencies as allowed by civil service rules under certain conditions.

This has already happened to some extent. In larger numbers, we'll truly see a disaster in the making if work comes to a standstill. Now there are four agencies critical to OCM success. Four agencies actually critical to any New York State agency success. Some of these agencies were themselves involved in the OCM review.

Those agencies are the Office of General Services responsible for OCM's contracting and HR services, the Office of Information Technology Services or ITS, the Department of Civil Service, and the Division of the Budget. Each of these agencies failed OCM. In the last three years, these very same agencies have negatively impacted OCM's efforts in hiring, contracting, obtaining IT services, budgeting, and enforcement efforts just to name a few. Now each of these agencies need to commit with a sense of urgency to the success of OCM in fulfilling the promise of the Marijuana Regulation and Taxation Act. The frustration with the slow pace of licensure is misplaced.

There are currently about 600 retail dispensary licenses issued. Licensees have had difficulty in converting those licenses into brick and mortar storefronts. The idea that the dormitory authority of the state of New York would be helpful has long been proven wrong. An accounting of the funds should be done and whatever remains of the original $50,000,000 committed by New York state should be dispersed to licensees as grants or low interest loans. One other issue needs to be addressed straight away.

Critically the IT systems that are in place and being developed by the state's ITS agency to process applications and manage the life cycle of the licensees remains largely non existent. Three years in and these systems are still basically manual and require constant workarounds. As more licenses are issued the problem is made worse. This issue at a minimum runs through the licensing compliance and enforcement units. The contract solicitation process at the state level is a years long process, a reason often given to just stick with ITS.

If OCM had gone this route at the start, proven commercial systems would be in place already. Whatever is necessary to shorten the time frame to issue a request for proposal needs to be done before the house of cards that is currently in place collapses. By the way, this is a process that OGS controls, ITS approves and budget finances. None of this absolves the agency from areas in which it has fallen short. Policy choices at times have trumped organizational capability.

Capability that hinges on staffing and ITS resources, both of which are limited. Big ideas have to be executable. Critically, OCM needs to be responsive to applicants and licensees seeking information. Again, IT systems should exist that allow those awaiting a determination to view where they stand in the process without necessarily having to speak to an individual. And yes, there does need to be an option to speak to a staff member.

Call centers have to be funded and established. At its creation, the staff allocation given to OCM would, even if fully staffed, have left the agency severely understaffed and the agency is not yet fully staffed. This is an agency that clearly should be budgeted to get to a fully functional level since it has geographic responsibility in every nook and cranny of the state. These resources can only come from Governor Hochul in the Division of the Budget. The outcomes and pace of review that is desired can only be accomplished with better IT systems and additional staff.

This staff cannot work longer and harder than they have been working for the past three years. This staff is the best staff in New York State government. At this point, I usually thank cannabis wire for their news items. In addition to that, I'd like to point out that you can now get 30% off a subscription to Cannabis Wire by going to cannabiswire.com and using discount code c w joint session. That's c w joint session.

Our first guest in this episode is attorney Jennifer Cabrera. She's worked with many New York State applicants and licensees and has invaluable advice on what to do if you've gotten a license and don't know what to do next. Welcome, Jennifer.

Hi, Herb. Thanks for having me.

Well, thanks, for taking the time today. You're a graduate of Harvard Law School and University of Cambridge. I am. Congratulations. That's pretty impressive.

Thank you. My parents pushed me hard.

Alright. So your parents pushed you hard and you graduated from these fine institutions, and then you decided to practice in cannabis law. How did that come about?

Oh, that's

a good question. So I graduated from Harvard in 02/2006. I was class of o '5, but I went to Cambridge for a year. So I was pushed back with my graduation, and I started out as a lawyer at Skadden, which is a big Wall Street firm in in Manhattan doing, commercial litigation arbitration. And when I was in college and law school, I I was a consumer of cannabis.

I didn't start till I was 18, but

it was

something I've always enjoyed since I discovered it. And, it turns out my parents as well. But I can tell you that when I was in school, this is not something that I could talk about generally. The people who I was around were not sympathetic to this. Mhmm.

Like, there were a few people who would use it. But number one, it wasn't a career by any stretch of the imagination. And, also, it was something that meant I could lose my federal student aid.

Mhmm.

So it was always something we kept hidden. It was our our family secret effectively that we were cannabis consumers. So around 2014 or so, when it looked like New York, New Jersey were going to legalize at some point, I started doing a little bit of this work and, made the move permanently in 2019. And I I think it's because it's something that I've always liked, and I had this passion for it. And I saw how much it had helped my dad over the years.

So I I feel lucky that I can make a career in this field.

Oh, terrific. You practice both in New York and New Jersey. Correct?

That's right. I'm admitted in both states.

So can you do a little sort of compare and contrast as between the New York program and the New Jersey program?

Yeah. Of course. So both states are alike in their goals of prioritizing social equity, and they just go about it in rather different ways. So New Jersey has made it very easy to qualify as a social equity or diversely owned business is how you do it. You can get certified by the state as a minority or woman owned business, whereas in New York, it's much harder to get that certification.

That's why in New York, if you're applying, you self certify because the process of getting the certification's quite difficult. New Jersey has made it very easy to get that qualification, and that gives you then priority review. And we also have in New Jersey, social equity director who prioritizes making sure a certain number of licenses go to diversely owned businesses and social equity businesses. Social equity businesses in New Jersey are defined as companies that have either someone from a low income background or a past conviction. So similar to SEE with extra priority in New York.

So you have these similar goals, but then they diverge a bit. New Jersey, it's very easy to get a license. There are no caps at the state level on the number of licenses they'll give out. It's rolling applications. Since it opened in December of twenty twenty one, they've just been accepting applications on a rolling basis, and there are no plans as far as I know to close it anytime soon.

There are no state setbacks. It's a very simple and, in a lot of ways, business friendly program. The problem in New Jersey is that the towns have a huge amount of control. So while the state makes it easy, the towns do not. Mhmm.

And the towns can have local licensing, which means you spend most of your time and money getting your property, getting your local approvals. New York, by contrast, has very little municipal control. The state was really careful from the beginning to and the crafters of the legislation to remove that. And, honestly, it's something that has allowed New York businesses to open so much more quickly than New Jersey. And here's an interesting statistic for you.

Even though New Jersey started awarding licenses in early to mid twenty twenty two, New York got a hundred retailers open before New Jersey. It happened late last month.

How many retail dispensaries does New Jersey have at this moment?

We hit a hundred in late April.

Oh, okay.

And New York hit that number a couple days before New Jersey did.

Right. And New Jersey has always been about, I I think, about six months ahead as far as the legislation?

It was ahead certainly in passing the legislation by, like, only about a month or two, but the regulations came out about a year earlier in New Jersey. Licensing opened probably over a year earlier. Like, the card program in New York Mhmm. That application started in summer of twenty twenty two. Right?

Thank you. My years are blending together at this point. New Jersey started general retail licensing in March of twenty twenty two. So it's a six month gap, but then New York started full licensing in late twenty twenty three. So in some ways, New Jersey had a year, year and a half head start.

Wow.

So the fact that New York got more stores open earlier, I think really indicates, in some ways, a better program.

Now focusing on New York, there's a a vast gulf between the number of licenses that have been issued. They're probably close to 700 at this point for retail dispensaries. And about a 14 stores have opened. And in my discussions with licensees, you know, what I've heard over and over again is just this lack of capital, you know, lack of ability and understanding of what the next step would be. So that's what I wanted to talk to you about today.

You're advising cannabis clients. So if I'm a new licensee in New York and I come to you, what's your advice? How do I get started? How do I move forward?

Well, first of all, if you're a new applicant in New York, you obviously, you can't apply right now. We'd have to wait for something to open up, a new licensing round. But Mhmm. If you won a license from the November queue, that means, number one, you already have a property under contract or or in a lease or under contract, which is great. So the process to getting open is pretty straightforward.

You finish your your fit out of the interior. You get your cameras put in. You get duchy and you use your your point of sale system. You order your cabinets and your vault and so forth, and you bring in OCM for a final inspection. And that whole process could take little as four to six months if you have a a sufficient location.

The problem is if you don't have that property. Like, let's say you you want a provisional license and you don't have a property yet.

Right. But or in some cases, you know, the card licenses. Right? The conditional adult use retail dispensary licensees, you know, going back to last year.

Mhmm. Absolutely. And for them, it's been really challenging because you get this effect in cannabis where once a landlord realizes that they own a property that is zoned for cannabis, the rent goes up, and they become incredibly difficult to negotiate with. So you're competing with all of these other people that want the same property, especially if you have something in in a desirable area like Manhattan, parts of Brooklyn

Mhmm. Where

you know you're a thousand feet away from the next dispensary, so you have proximity protection. Like, negotiating with that landlord becomes a nightmare. So you're going to need a security deposit, which is usually at least one month's rent. The landlord is probably going to ask for a personal guarantee on the lease. They often want that from somebody who can show a a bank statement or account statement

Mhmm.

Reflecting enough money to pay at least, one year's rent. And so they all you often need to bring in an investor just to get that property locked down. Some of the other things that you're going to need to think about are the cost of legal, the cost of accountants. In New York, legal's a lot less expensive than in another state that has, like, a more expensive upfront process. But you're gonna be paying your lawyers for negotiating your lease.

That's not cheap usually.

You've mentioned lawyers and you mentioned accountants. Mhmm. So how much money at minimum do I need, and who else might I need as a sort of professional assistance?

Well, if you are in Manhattan, you don't really need to go through a land use process. But a lot of the municipalities upstate, you're gonna need to get a special permit. So you might need an engineer. That's another, like, 20,000 or so. You might need an architect, and then you're going to need your contractor to do the building work.

I would budget easily 50,000 for lawyers, accountants, engineers just to get that initial approval. Contracting work, like, it could be as low as $2.50. The space is already adequate. It could be more like $5,600,000. Mhmm.

I know for card licensees that I'm working with who start with $0 and need to raise all the money, the magic number you're looking for is close to a million to be able to get from holding a license but no money to getting open.

Right. And then on top of that, you need the inventory once you're close to opening and staffing.

Yeah. So a million should help you get that inventory, help you get your payroll set up until you're cash positive. Now that's honestly doing it on a budget if you're in an expensive part of the state.

If I can't borrow a million dollars from my parents, right, or or family or friends Mhmm. What kind of deals are being offered? What kind of structures are you seeing?

It's very difficult to raise money in cannabis right now, unfortunately. If you look at, like, four, five years ago, pre pandemic, venture capital money was flooding the cannabis market. And so the folks that got off the ground in Colorado or Massachusetts, they got open in a very different world than our local licensees are. And so they could bring on an investor or even just, like, get a loan. Right now, it's incredibly challenging.

Loans are very hard to come by. If you do find a lender, you're looking at interest rates of 15 to 18% is kind of industry standard. 18 is very common. You're going to deal with some pretty tough controls from the lender, like, in terms of the lender making sure that you don't bring on any new investment while the loan is outstanding.

Mhmm.

There are gonna be a lot of provisions that put you in default. So if you fail to make a lease payment, you're immediately in default and the whole loan is due.

With one lease payment missed.

Mhmm.

Wow.

Because from the lender's point of view, that puts the entire project at risk, and they need to make sure they can get their money back. That is completely standard. And I know it's something that the OCM wanted to avoid in their regulations, but it doesn't change their fact. But that's pretty much what every single lending agreement is going to contain as a provision. Then you also have default interest, which goes up to a higher rate if you go into default.

So that's tough. If you get someone who's an investor and which investor I usually mean as someone who is becoming an owner of your company. They're giving you money and they own part of it. If you're an owner, you have a lot more risk. So because you get potentially a portion of the profits of the business, but you also there's no guarantee you get your money back.

Whereas a lender doesn't get a portion or profits of the business. They just get their money back plus interest, but there's a lot less risk. So if you can find someone willing to be an equity investor, which is hard to do if you have a company with no revenue, no track record, they're going to want preferred returns, which means, like, as money comes in, the first money to come in goes to them until they're paid back, like, one to two to three times their additional investment. They're also gonna want a lot of controls over the business. And, unfortunately, that's just the world we're in with raising money in cannabis right now.

And I know a lot of the licensees have really, frowned on giving up equity, but I I it may be necessary to do so. So how would I evaluate a deal, right, for myself? How would I determine what's a good deal or a bad deal?

Well, I think it's always good to have options. So I would try to get as many offers as you possibly can and to then compare them to each other. And you're gonna wanna look, okay. How involved does this investor wanna be? Do they wanna let me run my store myself, or do they wanna be really involved in it?

And that's something you need to consider. How involved do you, the licensee, want to be in running this? How much are you willing to accept somebody else's input and feedback because you probably are gonna have to accept some of it. You're also going to wanna look at what are the returns they're requiring. Do they want, like, three times their investment back, two times their investment back?

Is it, like, if it's a loan you're getting, are they asking for equity as well as the loan just as sort of a kicker? And then you can compare the offers on the table. You're gonna also wanna think of, are they asking for a personal guarantee where your house Mhmm. Or your like, any other asset you have is collateral for the loan you're getting because that means you sure as hell wanna pay it back because they can kinda ruin your life if you don't.

So if there's nothing that I can do with this license, right, if it it's just too daunting, too difficult to put this together, what can I do? Is there something else that I can do with this license?

You can sell it. And there is certainly a market for licenses in New York right now. One of the things that's been challenging is OCMs rules are very, they're a little difficult to follow on ownership, control, and so forth. Nonetheless, this market has cropped up and is thriving. So you can if you have a provisional license with no location, you can move anywhere in the state.

You can sell that. That may be a % of the license you sell. It may be that you just sell a minority interest, and the buyer has an option to get the rest down the road. If you have a property associated with your license, then you'll probably get more money for it. So I think there are a certain number of people that applied, got effectively won the lottery.

They they got a license, and they can now flip it because they have no interest in actually running a retail store, seeing how difficult it is to do. Or if you're able to raise the money like, I have a client who, I I'm thinking specifically about one client who is a social equity business. It's a a black woman owned business, and she has fought very hard to get this license. And she managed to get her store open, And she had to evaluate investors. I remember when we were going through that process and picking the right person for her, and she looked at all the auctions.

And it was her dream, and she made it happen, And she was able to get open. So, like, if you can kind of roll with the punches, you can get open and make it happen and have it be profitable. It's just a lot of blood, sweat, and tears.

Going back and and looking at people considering applying whenever the next round of applications becomes available, prior to applying, what advice would you give to those individuals?

I would think, do you want to run a store? Like, retail work is hard. You're going to be working probably seven days a week. You probably aren't going to have the money at least upfront to hire a general manager. So that means that you're probably the general manager, which means that you're on your feet ten, twelve hours a day, seven days a week until you get somebody who you trust enough to run it in your absence.

And you also are going to be up late thinking about the bills that are coming due. Like, how soon are you going to have to pay your suppliers if you haven't moved product quickly enough. You're gonna have to worry about your employees. Let's say you have one employee who's been stealing, and you have to get rid of them and talk to the other employees about it. You're also your employees have a right under state law to unionize.

And so you need to be working with them on making sure they're happy and also be cooperative in that process.

Mhmm.

So you're running a store. So think about, is that what you want? If you don't, then think in this simply in terms of this is a license that I am going to sell and look at it in those terms. But I would be honest with yourself. Be honest with yourself about what your goals are here.

Alright. Well, Jennifer, thank you so much for your time today. Jennifer Cabrera, a partner at Vicente LLP. Thank you.

Of course. Thanks.

That was great information from Jennifer. Our next guest has navigated all the issues we've just discussed and has successfully opened the dispensary in Brooklyn, New York. An opening that was attended by New York City Mayor, Eric Adams. In our licensee highlight, we welcome Lianne Mata. Welcome, Lianne.

Thanks for having me.

Again, thank you for making the time. I know this is a a busy, point in your life. So in February, you became the first black woman to open a dispensary in Brooklyn. First of all, congratulations.

Thank you very much.

And then second, why did you decide that this is what you wanted to do? What's your cannabis story?

Well, I have a few cannabis stories. The funniest one was when I was 15, I remember, my younger brother bringing home some cannabis that, him him and his friend had grew. They do just still seeds, not knowing it was a cannabis that actually grew, and we tried to do something with it. And the mice end up eating all our cannabis. So I've been fond of the plant for pretty much over thirty years.

Not a user, but just understanding the medicinal value.

Uh-huh.

But once coronavirus came and everything was going on with the education field, I was like, no. I got my CBD license.

And that's a CBD license from New York state?

From New York state. And I started doing research, started learning about the plant. Then my mother was actually suffering from opioid addiction. So then I started growing the plant. I put it in pill form because she liked the pills, so it was like a no brainer to put it in a pill to give to her.

And that really helped her wing off of the opioid. Wow. So after that, I started with the shea butter. So then I had seniors using it to rub on their knees and their back, and it was really helping. So I was like, hey.

I have something here. And then I started my CBD line where I had everything from beverages to lip gloss to rub.

Wait. So you were you were creating the beverages and the lip balm and and all that?

Yes. I was.

That's amazing.

I actually bought bought, like, the tea check. So, basically, you put the drops on there, and they'll tell you the amount of cannabis in the product. I was using the weight of the plant, but I was just I was actually using the plant, not just like the buds. So I would take the leaves and use it in the beverage. So when you get it, it was like this big fan leaf off of the plant, which was really, really successful because people never saw a weed leaf before.

Now, were you selling out of a store at that time?

I actually was selling everywhere. I was selling in Coney Island, big events. I was just hustling all over Brooklyn, selling these beverages and all my products. I would actually go to Lindenwood Diner and set my products out, and the staff would come, and they would buy all my products.

I've been to your store, and and one of the sort of, unique things that you have set up is the living room. What's the story behind that that living room? And I do have, my only correction to that setup would be the plastic covers. Plastic covers are missing.

Yes. I definitely agree to plastic covers, but I hated them growing up. So I used to put it because you would get stuck on it. Hot weather. Oh, yes.

You come your arms are sticking to the plastic or, like, when somebody's sweating, they leave, like, that plastic butt print on the plastic. So, yeah, that's the only thing it's missing, and I didn't want it because of that reason. But the theme behind it is that was my living room growing up. I think that was everybody's living room growing up in the eighties and nineties in Brooklyn. So that's why I have that living room filled because that's everyone's living room growing up in Brooklyn.

So now I I know that your your father and your brothers were charged with marijuana possession, and your father actually was hospitalized after an encounter with with the police. Can you talk about what it was sort of growing up at this time when, the enforcement was so heavy and strong with, marijuana?

Yes. Actually, my brother was raising us. I was in college I mean, I was in high school. He was in college at Medgar Evers College. I was, like, 16, 17 when he got arrested.

We was living in a four bedroom apartment on Hall Street, and he had a box cutter on him because he was working in the store. But they stopped him for the weed. And he just had, like, a joint on him. Because of the box cutter that he had on him, they tried to get him for a weapon, and they kept him for a very long time. Well, long enough for him to lose his job, and we almost got evicted.

We literally had everything in a box, was on our way out the door, and, something came through that saved us, but we were literally it it was like a trickle effect from losing his job over the arrest, from us getting almost evicted. Like

Incredible.

The sheriff's was at our door. And it wasn't even that much weed, him not being able to attend America's College anymore, and he actually never went back after that. So it was like a whole spiral down effect of his whole life from that one weed charge that started, you know, the chain effect of him losing his opportunity in college as well as losing his job. Fine.

Now you've also to switch topics a little bit, you you've self published the book, Money and Marijuana. Can you talk about that process and why you wanted to do that?

When I started the book, I was just fresh through starting the process with OCN to get my license. I knew I was in the queue, So I just started documenting everything from as I was growing the plants to the process of me getting license, from me infusing the products, from me, the regulations that OCM had for me to be able to get licensed and how this will look if anybody other than just me or any regular person can go in and understand, and it's broken down where you can understand and apply because it was a rigorous process. So I thought if I can make it easy for anyone, then why not? But I was also looking at branding of a product. That's why I started the book.

In the process, I realized there's not too many people of color, let alone women of color in this space, let alone women. So I I know we love to read. I know women like to go by steps, and we genuinely wanna also wanna learn a lot of things. Not saying men don't men do, of course. But the reason why we're not in the cannabis space is because it made it seem like it was taboo and it wasn't accessible.

So I figured if I put it in a book and more women read it, then they understand it is accessible and more obtainable once, you know, you do your research.

So now I I know that you have a relationship with Housing Works, and Housing Works was the very first dispensary to open in in the city of New York actually, in the state. So what is that relationship?

They assist in me with getting open, and I'm thankful for that, and that's the relationship.

Alright. So that and that's where the, sort of the concept, which is really taking form now, the collaboration over competition. Right? Collaborate, don't compete. I think that's something that you, feel strongly about.

Yes. I do. And I actually have a lot of cards coming in there. I show them the layout of the store. I break down how we categorize the product so it's easier.

A couple of my butt tenders trained another Brooklyn car older, butt tenders that are getting ready to open. Just been supporting cars throughout this process. I even met with the governor on Tuesday, and I explained to her team that it's important to license all cars and help them get open, and let's do it legally and support one another.

And that's actually really interesting because I I did see one article where you were asked that if you had the opportunity to sit down with governor Hochul, what would you say to her about the challenges? And then, you know, just as by chance, you you actually did have the chance to sit down with her. So what was her response to to your comments?

I didn't get a response. I felt well, it was more her team. She didn't come that day. They was just basically, like, a q and a. But, one of the things that I expressed to her was the marketing piece.

I felt like our hands are tied when it comes to the marketing. And if it was more clear cut guidelines on marketing, because I see some licensees are doing billboards, but we we were told that we can't do billboards. So I just want a clear cut understanding of how we can market and also making sure that we are working together to get more cards open and not let big business take over the market.

Okay. So in addition to understanding what is acceptable as far as marketing, if you could change the rules, if you could make a recommendation as to the marketing that you would like to see, what would that be?

The marketing I would like to see is more card based where we can, you know, I know other cards are doing it where they are doing the mailing to customers. I think that's a great avenue because now we know you have to be a certain age to pay bills and go into the mailbox. Even though sometimes people sitting there kids, but if we advertise smartly where we're not using certain words and pictures, I think we should have that autonomy to do so.

Mhmm.

So you're a single mom of three, including, young twins. You have two ma two degrees. Right? A bachelor's and a master's. You self published the book.

What's next for Leanne?

What's next for me is getting more women in this space. CUNY is having a graduation at June at the store. We're doing a can of divas for mommy and me where we're giving out free facial. On the fifth and sixth, I'm at the Woman's Pavilion at the Jacob Javits Center. Tonight, I'm doing a q and a with Tremaine Wright and small business owners in New York surrounded by the cannabis industry is just advocating, educating, and motivating.

Oh, excellent. Alright. So just to end wrapping up, what do you wanna tell people about the dispensary, Mottawanna? Please tell us the location and how they can they can find

you. Our location is 533 Fifth Avenue, Brooklyn, New York 11215. Our Instagram is mattawanna underscore brooklyn. I want you to know we had affordable canvas. We had ace for under $40.

We got dimes for under $10. We had premium tested product, so you could get some great cannabinoid party going on in your system from Matawana. We are a family ran and own business, so please come and support.

Well, thank you for your time today. It's great.

Thank you. Have a great day.

Thanks for listening. We'll be back in two weeks with a very special guest, nationally and internationally known cannabis lifestyle company CEO, Vladimir Bautista, and two board members from the Latino Cannabis Association. If you're enjoying the show, leave us a rating and review on your favorite podcast platform that helps new listeners find the show. Joint Session is produced by me, Herb Barber, with additional production and engineering by Matt Patterson, with Rebecca Malpika on digital marketing and social media. In addition, thank you to Cannabis Wire.

You can find us on Instagram at jointsession.pod. That's one word jointsession.pod and on LinkedIn at joint session podcast. Thank you.