Joint Session: Diverse Voices in NYS Cannabis

Welcome to joint session Diverse Voices in New York State Cannabis. My first guest in this episode is Daniel Okrent. Daniel has served as the first public editor of the New York Times. He is the inventor of rotisserie league baseball and has written several books. We discussed one of those books, last called The Rise and Fall of Prohibition.

In our licensee highlight segment, we feature Sheldon Anderson from Buffalo, New York and co owner of Public Flower in a revealing discussion of growing up around cannabis and now opening this store in Western New York. We'll begin with a spin around the news. New York City Mayor Eric Adams announced the kickoff of what he's calling Operation Padlock to Protect. That's our mayor. Why say with two words which you can say with four?

I'll just call it Operation Padlock. Now Operation Padlock is the start of a five borough operation to shut down unlicensed smoke and cannabis shops in the city of New York according to the announcement. The top cannabis regulator from New Jersey is also leaving. In a study that didn't seem exactly necessary, the Oregon Health and Science University found that infant outcomes are worse if cannabis and nicotine exposure is combined. Results showed that co occurring maternal use of cannabis and nicotine products in pregnancy is associated with an increased risk of infant and neonatal death and maternal and neonatal morbidity compared with use of either substance alone.

While the New York State Cannabis Control Board was meeting on May 10, governor Hochul held a press conference to announce an overhaul of the Office of Cannabis Management and the forthcoming departure of Chris Alexander, the executive director. Not everyone thinks this is the right move. The Cannabis Regulators of Color Coalition called on governor Hochul to reconsider her unjust decision to sever ties with Alexander as it will, quote, further exacerbate challenges and delays in critical areas such as licensing, staffing, equity, and overall regulatory implementation. Thanks to Cannabis Wire for that news. Subscribe at cannabiswire.com.

That's one word, cannabiswire.com. My guest is Daniel Okrent, author of Last Call, The Rise and Fall of Prohibition. Now as a person who reads a lot of American history, I love this book. This book has mentions of everyone from George Washington to Alexander Hamilton to Billie Holiday, Jack London, and our very own former mayor, Fiorello LaGuardia. The book describes a seventy to eighty years leading to prohibition in a thirteen years of actual prohibition.

Then there's a little bit of what comes after repeal. So, Dan, I'd like to focus our discussion at the start on what comes after repeal.

The key thing about repeal, though, I think the one has to begin with, is that it became harder to get a drink after repeal than it was during prohibition. During prohibition, there were no rules, no laws, no closing laws. You wanted to open a bar across the street from a church or a school and stay open twenty four hours a day and serve 12 year olds. If you bribe the cop on the beat, there was no problem doing that. But then the repeal regime comes in, and repeal sets up the legal system and the regulatory system that has been in place ever since, where people who are selling alcohol had licenses, and they ran the risk of losing licenses if they didn't follow the laws that came out after repeal.

And that's actually where I'd like to start. So two items in last call that sort of really stood out to me. So the first is is the very last picture in the book that shows this huge crowd of men. It's all men except for this one woman in the front, next to this police officer, and they're waiting in line outside of New York City's Board Of Health in order to obtain those liquor licenses. So that's the first thing.

And the second thing, one of the things that you write is that very few of the breweries that were operating prior to prohibition were able to come back after prohibition was repealed. However, for those, that were able to come back, and I'm quoting, the head start seized by the big brewers triggered a consolidation of the market that would never end. By 1935, '5 companies controlled 14% of the market. By 1958, their share had reached 31%. And by 02/2009, the three survivors had reached 80%.

So I'd like to start here because in in the New York cannabis world and the licensing scheme that, is now set up, those issues still are relevant. And, actually, those issues are leading to, arise in litigation. So first, what what immediately came after repeal? What did states have to do in order to create those frameworks that would allow the legal, market to begin?

The repeal amendment is only really three sentences long, three clauses long. And and really the critical one is that there was no longer a national prohibition on alcohol, and any alcohol regulation for consumption belonged to the states. So each state had its own way of doing it, and there were, in different states different ways, but they've stayed in place ever since because the small and large fortunes made by the brewers and the distillers coming afterward has armed them very well with lobbyists, who can keep the laws in place. So in some states, New Hampshire, you can only buy from a state liquor store. If you want beer in Pennsylvania, you have to get it from a bar and so on and so forth.

In New York state, you can get beer in a grocery store, but you can't get wine in a grocery store. You can get wine in a liquor store, but you can't get beer in a liquor store. And each state passed these rules with different, individuals and industries seeking to better their own circumstance. And once in place, they've stayed in place, but they do vary from state to state.

So what was it that legislatures, regulators learned from the period, you know, before prohibition, during prohibition, that informed those policies choices that they made in setting up the new markets?

Well, one key thing was the public health issue, and I think it was sincerely held, considered by a lot of people, but also was used as a cover for simply get rich schemes. The public health issues created the regime of age limits and time of day. And back in those days of Sunday Blue Laws, prohibition on specific days or specific times of days. And you could make the case very clearly that these things did help regulate consumption. That's what I meant when I was saying before that the it was harder to get a drink after repeal than it was Mhmm.

During prohibition. The two major forms of legal control, one belonged to the retail industry, and the other belonged to the wholesale industry. And it's particularly in the states where the wholesalers are most powerful that the control of alcohol, presumably by the state, but really by the wholesalers, remains in place ninety years later.

So once the the new regulatory schemes came in, you know, one one of the quotes in the book from, the New York City Police Commissioner said that at one point there were 32,000 illegal drinking spots by the end of the 1920s. And someone else said, you know, we don't know whether Prohibition worked in New York. We never tried. So how how did New York deal with, the illicit operators? I assume the illicit operators, did not shut down immediately after prohibition was repealed.

Not immediately, but most of them disappeared, rather thoroughly, certainly within a couple of years. I think that the key reason for that was the very effective and perhaps honest publicity campaigns of the licensed liquor operators, that you can't trust the helpfulness of the the illegal liquor you might be buying from the guy who doesn't have a license, whether it's from the distributor, from the, retailer, or even from the distillery itself. It was not something that got the seal of approval of the state. So given that there were, during prohibitions, many deaths and illnesses caused by, you know, wood, alcohol, and other things that were put into liquor to make it less expensive and to, you know, to spread it more widely, That had hurt the reputation of these, illegal operators. And the the stress on health and safety, drink responsibly, really was a great, public relations move on the part of the distillers and and the brewers, particularly.

You can trust us. Who knows what you're drinking when you're getting it from that guy down the street? Mhmm. It was also a matter of brands. Brands were not important before prohibition.

You went into a bar and you asked for whiskey, but the branding that came out of prohibition was another way of presumably ensuring the quality and the helpfulness of what you were drinking.

So what tools did states use in trying to ensure a balance between ensuring that access to the alcohol but limiting the possibility of oversupply and maybe even, as we mentioned, overconsumption. Right? Overconsumption being one of the main drivers for prohibition in the first place.

Well, some states were rather stingy with the licenses. Other states, you could have four bars at the four corners of a single intersection. I don't think that the states that legalized, and many states did not legalize until as late as the nineteen sixties in a couple of cases, the states that did legalize, there was not a lot of interest in controlling the quantity of alcohol that was being sold because it was the tax revenue that came from alcohol that was used to put the partly to put the country back on its feet again. It was also a jobs program. In some states, there were tens of thousands of people who worked in the brewing and the distillery industries.

Those who legalized had incentive to have as many people selling it as possible. The ones who didn't want it to be sold by as many as possible were obviously the remaining and badly weakened temperance forces, but also in a particular state. The grocery stores in Michigan, for instance, they've been selling liquor since 1933. You can't buy liquor in a grocery store in in New York. So the effort on that part of the liquor dealers, the retailers in New York state, has kept alcohol out of the grocery stores.

So the state itself had little incentive to reduce quantity of drinking, whereas the private operations, the profit making operations, they did.

One of the issues that, is still relevant today, and you talk about in the book, is the vertical integration. And you you mentioned some of the, especially, breweries that not only made the beer but made the glass, had the railroad cars, had special arrangements with the bars. How did, states, maybe New York in particular, deal with vertical integration in the alcohol market?

I can't tell you about New York in particular. I I I never studied that. The, vertical integration was, in fact, I think, badly hurt for beer, particularly, by prohibition, that the control that the breweries had by supplying everything that you needed to operate a bar had disappeared and the relationship with the bar owner had disappeared. He then began operating illegally as a speakeasy or as an underground operation, and he reopened on his own when it was over. He didn't wait for the brewery.

And also, as you had mentioned before, vast numbers of breweries folded and were no longer able to do that. So it was a matter of the ever shrinking number of breweries having ever more influence. And one place that they could not have influence effectively any longer was you can only get my beer in this bar. That's what had been the case before prohibition.

So when you look at, you know, prohibition, as you studied it and compare it to what's happening in the cannabis, world today in New York in New York and in The US, is there a sense of deja vu that you've seen this before?

Well, the deja vu would was greater before legalization, for me at least.

Right.

Which is to say, I think the prohibition proved that you cannot legislate against human appetites, particularly, especially, and importantly, human appetites that don't directly harm anybody else but the user. You can't get people to stop seeing prostitutes in every society in the world, and you can't get people to stop buying intoxicants in every society of the world. And as we know from the story of the last many decades, nobody who wanted to get marijuana in New York state ever had a problem getting marijuana in New York state. So what this new legal regime does is it brings it into state control for the for the benefit primarily of taxation and, presumably, health and safety.

So at at this point, is there any advice based on, you know, your experience and what you've, studied that you would have for New York State, for regulators, for legislators, for the leadership that's involved in this process?

Well, I can't, claim to be even remotely an expert on this on that subject. But, you know, what what appears to me, from a layman's view is the real problem is that nothing has happened that has particularly hurt the illegal sellers. And because it was never a brand operated business cannabis, particularly, the illegal sellers stay in place. And because they're not paying taxes, they're underpricing the legal sellers. Now will people say I can buy from this guy on the corner for $5 for a joint, or do I wanna pay $8 for the same joint inside of a store?

Well, presumably, if that's a state regulated store, that's safer. But were people dying in large numbers because they were buying it from the guy in the corner? No. Mhmm. So I I I think that that the state needs to figure out a way, and I don't know what the way is, to make it more appealing without giving up the tax revenue, to make it more appealing to buy from a regulated legal store than from an illegal operation.

The only way I can think of that is price controls, but price controls never work. So

Alright. Well, thank you. I'd like to turn back and talk about the meat of the book, which is prohibition. Now for me, there was nothing in the book that makes the country of a hundred years ago, a hundred and fifty years ago, unrecognizable. Now this to me sort of feels like a, you know, junior high school newspaper question, but what was the most surprising thing you learned in writing this book?

Wow. Wow. I learned so many surprising things. I think the thing that really kinda knocked me off my feet the first time I encountered it was the in the separation of the distillers from the brewers, they became opponents.

Mhmm.

The brewers wanted to make the case that they were healthier because it was much less alcohol. The distillers obviously didn't like that, so they found any way they could to undercut the brewers. But the advertising and the public relations that the brewers, engaged in really did surprise me, which is to say it was called liquid bread. They actually made the case that not only was it less injurious to drink beer rather than to drink hard liquor, but it was actually helpful to do so. And I have I think there are a couple of of pictures in the book Mhmm.

Photographs of some advertisements from the eighteen nineties of little babies drinking beer as if it were mother's milk. That really kind of stunned me. What it demonstrated to me is the people who are selling liquor and probably anything else will do whatever they can to get more people to buy their product. I mean, really infants drinking beer. That shocked me.

The the the there were so many things. I mean, I think in terms of important things, it was the connection between alcohol production and sale and its connection to taxes. Mhmm. It was impossible to have national prohibition until after the sixteenth amendment was enacted in 1913. That created the income tax, which had been against the law by Supreme Court decision made a couple decades before that.

But once there was a constitutional amendment that authorized the income tax, then the governments, both state and federal, had another source of income that made them less dependent on the alcohol tax. The alcohol tax was the single largest domestic source of revenue in The United States before 1913. And it was second in overall revenue just to the, to the tariff. Government lived on alcohol taxes and tariffs. Take away out the need for the alcohol tax because you have the income tax.

Suddenly, in the next four years, prohibition could be enacted.

Right. I think the number in the book was 40% at one point Up to 40% of, federal revenue was coming from the alcohol excise taxes.

Right. And and that the tariff was the was the other main source. But domestically, there was no nothing as large as it was also the fifth largest employer in the country, which, you know, was a a real issue. But in any case, so the tax situation brought in prohibition. It enabled prohibition.

And prohibition ended because the country the government was broke. When the depression hits in 1929, federal income tax revenue drops by a third. There's no capital gains revenue because nobody had any capital gains in those years. The government was running on fumes, and some people, particularly some very wealthy right wing people, fought for repeal because they didn't wanna pay the damn income tax. They knew that if there were no other tax around, that it would just be increased on them.

And the DuPont family particularly funded the repeal movement mostly out of an anti tax attitude. And one of the DuPont brothers said that, you know, if we could get a penny out of a very nickel glass of beer, we wouldn't need an income tax at all. So that was a shocker. Mhmm.

And as well as the, the alliance that sort of developed between abolitionists I mean, you had this group of abolitionists, KKK, suffragettes, union organizers, you know, all working together in the effort to, secure prohibition.

Yeah. It was really an a coalition like none other that I know of in American history. At the far right, you had the KKK. Their issue was all the immigrants in the big cities who were running the bars, and it was true. Italian and Irish immigrants in the Northeast, at least, controlled the the liquor business.

The distilling business was controlled by Jews. So the KKK had this

And the brewers. Well,

and and the brewers more German than Jews. But but but immigrants, definitely.

Right.

So they were an enemy to racists and antisemites. The religious opposition also, I guess you would say, on the right, presumably believed in the evil of liquor. But if you go to the other end of the spectrum, you find socialist organizations campaigning for prohibition because of the argument that management was using alcohol to subdue and pacify the working class, And that was carried to its extreme with the IWW, the Industrial Workers of the World, the most radical union in American history, which was a pro prohibition union.

Many of the divisions in society in the nineteen twenties continue to exist in the twenty twenties. So issues like federal powers, states' rights, they're still playing out today. Are we destined to see the same issues one hundred years from now?

I think that there there are certain issues that were in play then, are in play now, and will always be in play. And the key one is can government control people's behavior. And that the struggle between individual rights and the rights of the society to limit individual rights, that is a division that will always be in place.

So what have we learned that makes us a completely different country in the twenty twenties than we were in the nineteen twenties?

Well, specifically relating to, as I said before, relating to alcohol and cannabis, you can't keep people from doing what they wanna do if it's not gonna have direct effect on somebody else. Now campaigns against drunk driving show that it does have an effect on somebody else, but it's not gonna bring it it's not sufficient effect to lead there to be a movement to outlaw liquor. Human desire is a very powerful thing.

Alright. Now I had a question from, a a fan. This is the last question, and and I I apologize in advance for it. So the question is, what is your favorite munchies snack?

My favorite munchies snack is whatever is sitting in front of me. I would guess it's probably some form of, sort of a tortilla chips that you can dip dip into a nice dip. But when I get cannabis, I'm not a a frequent user, but when I get cannabis munchies, just if you're the refrigerator, watch out.

Alright. Nothing can stand between you and the refrigerator at that point.

Yeah. If you're on one side of the table and you've got some good munchies, and I'm on the other side of the table, pity the table.

Well, thank you very much, sir. It's been a great pleasure to speak with you. I I know it's taken us some time to connect, but, definitely has been worth it.

No. It's fine. Thank you. It's been my pleasure.

Thank you. In our licensee highlight segment, I speak with Sheldon Anderson, co owner of Public Flower Dispensary in Buffalo. He shares what it's like living and working with his partner and growing up around cannabis. My next guest from the Queen City, the city of Buffalo, Sheldon Anderson, CEO of Public Flower. How are you?

I'm doing well. I'm doing well. Thank you for having me. Just in the store right now, just doing some, minor housekeeping and, you know, looking forward to the conversation. I took a listen to one of the previous episodes and really enjoyed the conversation.

So thank you again for the opportunity.

Alright. Well, perfect. Thank you for making the time. I know it's tough when you're running a business. With licensees and and our licensee highlight segment, I always like to to ask, how did you come to this point in time?

What's your cannabis story?

Before the law was passed that decriminalized the cannabis, My family has been in the cannabis industry, you know, in the legacy market. My father effectively made up the majority of his income through cannabis sales and he operated a few bodegas in New York City from like, I don't know, I would say '95 up until like five maybe. And one of the things that's funny is I remember being in the store that was across the street from a public housing in in Brooklyn, New York and, you know, just being a little kid just, you know, stacking stuff or whatever. And I remember just, you know, obviously, Canada's being a role that, you know, in my family's life, coming to the country from The Caribbean. And so, that's pretty much how he, you know, made up the significant majority of his income.

That that's how he provided for his family.

Correct. Right. He you know, I'm one of five siblings. He has other children as well. So, you know, that was that's exactly correct.

He provided for that. And, he always stressed education and, you know, making sure that you have some type of entrepreneurial, endeavor going on. And he also had legitimate businesses as well. He did, like, use car sales. That was kind of his his other thing that he did as well.

Mhmm. But it's something that is kinda was taboo. It's not something that I ever talked about or bragged about. I got into the cannabis trade in college, leading up to college. One, just consuming cannabis, and then it just kinda just naturally fit where people would say, hey.

I wanna buy something.

It's

like, well, if people keep asking me, is this clearly a demand? It it's something I never really talked about because it's not something that I glorify or I rather talk about. You know, I I went I have my undergraduate degree and my graduate degree.

Mhmm.

And I also, you know, have a full time job and a and a career in government. So I I rather, you know, talk about that. You know, for example, like, I I don't there's some things I feel comfortable putting on LinkedIn and some things I don't. Right? So when the license opportunity came out in September of twenty twenty, I wanna say 2022.

Right. It was spring you know, spring summer twenty twenty two, I learned about the the car program, and I was pretty excited. Prior to that, my fiance and her dad, we obtained a hemp cultivation license, because we, you know, wanted to try to figure out how to get into the cultivation space. Just kinda just being, Mariah and myself, we were be, like, amateur, I guess, growers, you know, know, five, ten plants.

And Mariah is your partner. Yeah. She's your fiance, but also right.

Correct. Partners in business and life. Yes.

Well, good luck with that.

Yes. Yes. Yes. You know, it it it's it's awesome. I think, there's some things it's kinda like, we have a communication where we don't have to speak to one another.

We just kinda vibing off each other really well, and so we make a great team. So, yeah, in 2022, we got the hemp license. I applied for that. We got that, and then learned about the card program. And the reason I remember this is because, Chris Alexander, the assembly majority leader, Crystal People Stokes, they all were in Buffalo doing basically a town hall talking about the card program.

And I remember at the end of the presentation, I messaged my mom and I was like, hey. Like, this program, you know, I already have my consulting business. It seems like I kinda automatically prequalified myself in a sense. I'm like, I think I qualify for this, but I'm gonna need some help on the paperwork at the, you know, in terms of, like, figuring out convictions, things like that or what have you. And then so that was, like, spring summer of twenty twenty two.

I applied for the card program in September 2022. And, at the time, I didn't know what the next seventeen months would would hold, but we applied and we, you know, put our hat in the ring tape to get a adult use dispensary. It was one of those things where it's like my experience just consuming cannabis, selling cannabis as well, and then also just being around other people that sold cannabis probably on a lot larger scale than I did. It was something where I had that skill set and understanding, and then I also had the business background doing my consulting work. So it kinda just was a natural fit.

So, you know, I think it's kinda interesting. It's actually, you know, just having that experience. So my my my father kinda did that, you know, in the illicit legacy market for a while, so it's kinda full circle.

Thank you for talking about that background. I think, you know, one of the aims of this program is to destigmatize the past. And, you talking about, you know, the the what you grew up under, and so is really important. Now you were impacted by the injunctions. So so as you said, the, you know, the applications were out that summer, you know, fall of twenty twenty two.

Licenses were, you know, being issued, and then there was a lawsuit. And I think it was the first lawsuit against OCM and and the work that OCM was doing. So that I think it's VeriSight one. So in November of twenty twenty two, '5 regions were enjoined from, from moving forward with any licensing activity, and that happened to be one of your regions. Right?

Correct.

How did that impact you? What were you thinking about during those months until, I think it was March of twenty twenty three when the injunction was lifted?

It was concern, but then also just curiosity as to, well, there are other stores that are gonna be open. So let's see how that goes. Let's follow what they're doing and just continue to do just be, you know, invested in, you know, do, like, almost, like, monthly breakdowns. Okay? This is what's happened.

Tried to follow some of the, legal issues. You know, we're not attorneys but you know, just from like a novices perspective, just understand, okay, what they're talking about and possibly trying to figure out when there's gonna be some type of sliver opportunity. At the same time, also scouting locations and trying to determine where would be appropriate locations to have a dispensary. It was pretty much, hey, this is not going to be a permanent thing. And then also too, I think the first lawsuit that person we actually researched that they sued other states and then we realized that it's like it was like a trend.

So it's like, basically, we know that there was gonna be a it wasn't gonna be a permanent situation. So we just wanted to be as prepared as possible once there's a red light,

green light, and there's a green light. Well, and that's interesting because you you took that as an opportunity to also look at the licensed stores that we're opening and that we're moving forward. And and you looked at that strategically to see what they were doing, as to something that you might follow-up on.

Correct. Yeah. And and I think just being from New York City, I went home to Brooklyn. You know, I have friends that I went to school with that have illicit shops in in the city, and that's their choice. And when I would go down to the city, I saw how the proliferation of all of the stores.

And then I I saw on the news that I think it was Housing Works was the first one in New York City that opened up and, you know, I think, we were just watching the news coverage. It was almost like just looking at it as inspiration and be like, okay. You know, it's possible. It's a real thing. There's an opportunity.

Obviously, it's, like, 400 miles away, but, again, just that connection in New York City, I was always just trying to see exactly keep my pulse to what's going on.

And you've actually mentioned that, that you're from Brooklyn a couple of times. And, if you've listened to the program, then you know I'm from Brooklyn. I've been trying to resist asking where you're from, but I'm not going to resist that anymore. So where in Brooklyn?

The Canarsie area intersection. So I grew I grew up in the fifties. So it's like, the biggest intersection will be like, Utica and Kings Highway.

Yep. No. I know it. I and I grew up in East New York, which is a neighborhood over from Canarsie.

It definitely was good going back home. You know, hopefully, at one point, try to get, like, a apartment or something, you know, save on the Airbnb and hotel cost, I guess. But, Birkin is definitely home for sure.

So now I I I saw a quote, and this might even have been your quote that said, public flower is more than a dispensary. It is a beacon of innovation, inclusivity, and community development. Can you elaborate what is it that you sort of think about, when you when you hear those words innovation, inclusivity?

Absolutely. So it it it starts with the neighborhood that we're in. And we're in Allentown. It's a historical neighborhood in in Buffalo. It also has a a significant population, where, pride is embraced and celebrated as pride festivals.

It's like one of the larger festivals. There's pride parade that comes down Elmwood and Allen. And also too, there's a lot of different small businesses. There are bars and different, different just cultural centers that cater to a wide variety of people. So I think we wanted to approach our store as something where people I mean, everyone could feel welcome.

And and we we were very deliberate in the naming of of the business as Public Flower, where people could feel like anybody can come in. It's not something where it's too overly, catered to one demographic or the other. And where, you know, we've had people that come in that are 87 years old to people who just turned 21 a couple weeks ago. And so they can all feel comfortable asking questions about what's the difference between these types of strings or edibles and provide the education. And we have like little charts that we show people and we empower them to do some research as well in terms of some of their needs and curiosity.

Because I think you can easily develop a store in a layout where it it's not inclusive, and it almost feels as there there's not a real opportunity for education, there. Because there's some stores, especially in the in the in this sticker shops, I think that's kinda tough just because Mhmm. Some of those stores, they don't really offer that or have that as a component. It's pretty much much this is what we have by it. And so I think that that's something that was important is to making sure that we wanted to be patient with people and help provide information.

We have a lot of information on our website as well about the different products and making sure that people can feel comfortable that what we have is curated and we're willing to educate people on the different products that we carry.

I saw that you're in a restored historic building that dates back to the eighteen hundreds. Can you talk about that a little bit and and what you're trying to do there?

Yeah. Sure. No. I think that's one thing that makes our dispensary, unique. And I think it's a challenge to other operators and future operators is to try to be creative and embrace, you know, certain, locations and make it as unique as possible.

It's kinda like almost setting up a boutique restaurant or, hair studio or barbershop or what have you. But, in, yeah, in 1895, I make the joke. My good friend, Eli Hosmer, built the building. There's a business directory from, like, basically, the turn of the century where it's listed, and it says his title was a druggist, d e r u g g I s t. And he had an apothecary in the building.

And in the basement, he probably had his tinctures and different, remedies and things like that. And there's also, the common council chambers that shows the motions for him actually being registered as an apothecary. And I thought that that was really interesting and unique. Again, back to the point of Allentown being a historical district, there's a lot of properties that have, charm and history. So, I think it's just amazing being able to have some type of connection to the past and bringing it to the present and then leading ends in the future for cannabis as a plant based remedy for people.

Now I I know you have a background in public relations and multimedia services. How is that helping you in this rollout of, Public Flower?

I think it's it's been tremendously helpful. That's one of the qualifying factors that I had, for my business that qualify for me for the license. I think that's one thing that people may not or the media, I say, in general, is they say that the card program is, you know, a bunch of former drug dealers who got licenses, but everyone who qualified had a legitimate business, tax returns, etcetera. And so the consulting business that I had, you know, doing marketing and communications assistance primarily to not for profits, but one of the things that's helpful is understanding how to navigate the media landscape, how to communicate just with different groups of people, you know, not just mass mass communication, just being an effective public speaker and positioning the business where people can feel, you know, welcome and and comfortable, engaging with our brand. You know, there are some dispensaries that whether they're sticker shops or licensed dispensaries, they're maybe too narrowed or too niche into their focus and sometimes that may be kind of confusing to people, I guess.

But that's been super helpful is because I'm able to look at other brands and other best practices and try to develop something that is, unique and and also, just engaging with a a large group of people.

So looking at best practices, there are, a great many license holders that have not yet opened a dispensary. Alright? What advice would you give to them? What are the best practices that they should, you know, look to as they move forward to opening their stores?

Definitely get with people who have either successfully done it before and see how you can learn from them. Reach out to other operators. I had a handful, if not dozens of conversations with operators who were open during the injunction periods, both injunctions, and just picking their brain, you know, ten minute conversation here, fifteen minute conversation. And then you can learn about who are some of the, you know, subject matter experts that they utilize, whether it's a lobbyist or an attorney, a commercial real estate broker. You know, you want people who are as familiar with it, the process as possible and who can provide you with some truth and realities.

I think there's a lot of, you know, things that are just not really true where people can kind of stumble over over themselves as it relates to finding a location because there's an assumption that you have to have a, you know, no federal mortgage building or something like that, or you have to have a certain restriction like it needs to be a former bank. Like, it it's unfortunate, but I'm sure that there's people who are awarded a provisional license, and they're operating with a set of facts that are just not grounded in reality. But it's because they're going off of I'm not sure, but, you know, they should you don't need to look for a bank, and you don't need a 5,000 square foot building either. You can get something done with 2,000 square feet or less and have retail a retail storefront or section of that maybe 600 feet. It doesn't have to be, you know, you know, the Taj Mahal, so to speak.

And, you know, you don't need that. You know, there's some people who opened up stores with I bought a cabinet on Facebook marketplace, but then obviously I bought other ones, you know, since then. But, you know, I I just had a more granular, like, approach to it versus trying to make it look like, you know, the world's greatest looking dispenser. I think that's just be practical is my best advice.

That's great advice, whether you're opening a cannabis shop or or doing anything else. So I wanted to thank you, Sheldon, for taking the time today to be on joint session. Where can people find out more about Public Flower or visit you at Public Flower?

Yeah. So, you know, to to any of your listeners and, you know, if you're in Buffalo, we're in Allentown, so right on Allen Street, Allen And College. We also have a website. It's publicflower.co. You can follow us on Instagram, public flower, all one word.

We're the first, minority and woman owned licensed dispensary in the city of Buffalo, and we've had more than 4,000 customers, to date. And we've only been open for about seventy days so far. And so, you know, we're we're definitely willing to help people on their journey as they've learned more about cannabis and, you know, improve their education about cannabis. I think that that's always something that's awesome. And so, you know, if people have any questions about how to get open and operating, they can always go to our website and shoot us an email or get in touch with us and we'd be happy to speak with them.

Well, that's very kind of you. Again, thank you, Sheldon. Best of luck to Public Flower. Thank you for listening. We'll return in two weeks with our next episode.

If you're enjoying the show, leave us a rating and review on your favorite podcast platform. It helps new listeners to find the show. Joint Session is produced by me, Herb Balbeau, with additional production and engineering by Matt Patterson with Rebecca Malpica on digital marketing and social media. In addition, thank you to Cannabis Wire. You can find us on Instagram at jointsession.pod.

That's one word, jointsession.pod and on LinkedIn at joint session podcast. Thank you.